Opening a sandwich bar/Coffee bar

[OctoberMoon]

I'm aware this is not an AIBU, but i've posted on two other more relevant sections on the board and there's no traffic!

In the very, very early planning stage of hoping to eventually open a sandwich/coffee bar. After some information and advice if anyone here either runs one, works in one or knows a bit about it?

I have about 15k available to start me off (This is not a loan and won't need paying back to anyone) My idea is slightly different than a standard sandwich/coffee place but don't want to divulge too much info incase i'm outed.

In terms of staff, i'd be there running it as much as childcare would allow. I have 2 family members who are already in catering (and have the relevant food hygiene certificates required) who are hoping to get on board and work alongside me.

The questions I want to know the answers to will probably make me come across as extremely naive and lazy! I'm aware I could find the answers to these questions myself through market research etc, and I will, but i'm hoping those in the know may help me out a little? As I say, I am in the very early planning stages. The questions I want to know the answer to are -

Could my staff be self employed, responsible for their own tax and NI? Or do I need to be their employer?

I'm aware that location is the deciding factor as to whether this fails or succeeds. I'm thinking being close to other businesses/schools would be my best bet? Any tips of what I should look for in terms of location?

I want to start pricing equipment, is there a wholesale place that anyone could recommend? What's the best way to source produce in bulk?

Where can I find out more about what regulations I need to follow to open one? And more info on what qualifications or courses are needed in order to be able to safely work with food?

Any other info you can provide or any hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and i'll have to try and make it AIBU, so am I being unreasonable and bloody stupid to think that this could work and make me a fairly decent living?

"Mind you, if I was setting up a business I'd do a course and open a barbers."

I'm surprised. I just use clippers on OH's hair at home. He hasn't been to the barbers for years. How many other men just do the same?

Some do, some don't,

If Costa/Starbucks/Caffe nero haven't already opened up on the site you are interested in then the site isn't worth having anyway.

A cautionary tale : nearby, a local couple transformed an old bus shelter and disused toilets into a park coffee shop. There were no coffee shops in the "village".

6 months later, Costa opened in an empty shop unit.

I'm I the only one thinking

I also had a coffee shop / sandwich Bar / cafe.

I worked 6 days a week. Around 60 to 70 hours.

Turned over about 50000 a year.

Overheads are massive. I took home between 5 and ten thousand a year.

I enjoyed it. But it was never going to make me a decent living. I sold it when I was pregnant. I lost money. since the recession it's been virtually impossible to make businesses like this work. I used to hear tell from others in the catering industry that ten years ago they were taking double what they do now. Lots of factors. As people have said. Greg gs. Costa Coffee etc.

I also did outside catering to boost earnings. On those days I would be at the shop from 7am till 9pm. Prepping etc. If I had a pound for everyone who told me I had a 'gold mine' or that it must be great working just 8 till 3 every day (Grrrr) then I would be ric.

The reality is that you are in an hour or two before opening. Prepping. You are there for at least an hour after closing tidying up. Cleaning etc. Then you go to the cash and carry. Then on Sundaysu you .

Sorry phone is possessed today...

then on Sundays you do your accounts.

And people who only come in occasionally ask you why you aren't open 7 days a week / at night etc etc.

Anyway. As I said. I enjoyed it. There is a lot to he said for working for yourself. But being tied to actual premises and opening hours is stressful and a massive responsibility. It put the tin lid on my marriage.

Think it all through very carefully. I didn't have kids at the time either. That's why I sold it when I was pregnant. Could not face juggling the nigh on impossible.

Good luck. Whatever you decide. Think about alternatives that interest you. Think about your skills. I had been on Masterchef but just ended up banging out (admittedly fabulous) breakfasts all day long and stinking of fried eggs...

Fascinating thread. I have nothing to add from a professional perspective but just wanted to comment on the idea that every area has one of the big chains. Mine doesn't. I live in SE London. 20 years ago if you wanted to go out for coffee or tea or lunch, there were one or two greasy spoon cafes in walking distance of our house and that was about it.

Nowadays within a 10-minute walk we also have seven independently owned places which mostly sell coffee/tea and good quality breakfasts/cake/lunches. One opened last year and is primarily a deli. The others have all been going for a minimum of two years - some a lot longer than that. I have no idea whether any of them are making any money but they haven't folded. You don't have to walk much further to find even more, and as yet there isn't a single Costa/Caffe Nero/Starbucks in the area.

The other big success story in our area is Brockley Market, which was nominated for a BBC Food and Farming award last year. A big part of the attraction there is coffee and food sold from mobile vans/stalls. You might want to take a look. It's been running successfully for a few years now.

Judging by our local blog, we also have lots of places locally who will offer space for pop up ventures which run for a short time to test the water for a particular concept. Another popular one seems to be supper clubs where people pay to go to dinner in someone's home or some other venue with a small group of other people. Worth investigating?

Of course, London is London and none of this might work elsewhere.

Here I am again. I keep thinking of things...

There's no substitute for good hard research in your own area. I spent months researching.

Don't forget you may have to be prepared to go the first year without taking any earnings. Expect the unexpected. I had deli counters and coffee machines repeatedly break down in the first year and needing costly new parts. Expensive machinery. It either cost a fortune nrw or it costs to constantly maintain second hand gear. Food costs are higher than ever so profit margins are slimmer. I would have a good day them something would break and I would find myself forking out for a new panini machine. Suppliers would come in every day and prices of chicken, bacon, tuna would go up WEEKLY but of course I couldn't put my prices up that often... but when I did. God most prople moaned about it.

We has a few thefts. That's quite upsetting too. It's all balanced out by lovely regular customers who are very complimentary. But the day someone steals from your tip tray, snaffles a few Mars bars from the display and someone complains your brownies aren't cooked properly (THEY ARE MEANT TO BE SQUIDGY!) is the sort of day you want to stick a knife in them.

There are some great books in the library. How to run a sandwich business is the one I had. Tells you a lot about employing staff etc.

By the way. The lady I sold my café to lasted about 10 months. She had some romanticised notions of wafting round baking scones and smiling serenely I think. However. She's sold it on and the new proprietors seem to be making a go of it. Although they look mighty harassed all of the time.

You must have the support of your family. That is extremely important. Like I say. It was the final straw in my marriage. If you have another salary to live on however and that person is happy to support you for an unlimited time then that's a great start.

Great posts, dawn.

Can't thank you all enough for your contributions, you are genuinely helping more than you could imagine. Up the wall at the moment but will read through all the posts I haven't had time to a little bit later & respond. Will also PM the poster who kindly invited me to.

AllMimsy - I want to echo what you say too, re SE London, I'm in Crystal Palace - the chain (Brown and Green) who started up 5 years ago, did so when a 5-10 minute walk up the road there was and still is, a Caffe Nero and some small cafes/restaurants which do tea/coffee.

but nothing artisan, ethical etc was in the area (apart from say Dulwich) - they also do outside catering, private events, kids parties and I think have even published a book (see website) at all! so they filled a gap in the market.

At Crystal Palace station (and Gipsy Hill) which were revamped/remodelled there was a tea/coffee van and an old cafe. B&G revamped these areas with the introduction of Southern Railways revamping these stations and refitting them.

Still in Crystal Palace there's talk of Costa Coffee opening a cafe there but no sign of it, in fact we hear all the time of Starbucks maybe joining us but no sign yet... and a lot of people are surprisingly enough loyal to the local cafes and B&G as well as Caffe Nero! There are also a lot of people in the area who go for coffee etc regularly.

So yes, not every area has one of the big chains or they can survive alongside one.

In the village next to ours there are two cafes. One is by the river, very chi chi, very expensive, always really busy, gets the visitors, walkers trade. In the summer the sell admittedly delicious ice creams out of a window for a minimum of £2.50 a pop, families are queuing up to hand over a tenner. There must be a good mark up there.

My DD works in the other cafe in the village. Not quite a greasy spoon, but certainly no frills. They get the pensioners and people on a budget. Apparently they need £150 a day to keep going. It is owned by two brothers who have other things going on, (writing, music etc). They make a minimum wage living from their cafe though.

You need to know the area you are hoping to work from.
Are there offices and factories nearby? What about parking?

Also worth remembering is to do a few things well, soup for example; cheap and not much last minute prepping.

You can't be all things to all people.

Sick to what you are good at and has the best returns.

In the meantime I'd look for a part time job in a café, any sort of establishment and get a feel for how things really work.

Bit doom and gloom this thread! I think you've got to think a bit differently and evolve your idea into something more workable.

It's true that rent, rates and overheads are crippling and soon suck the joy out of running your own business, so investing in a trailer would do away with a large proportion of those ongoing costs and free you from the tyranny of a lease. It's comparatively low cost to set up (though you will easily get through your 15K), and if it doesn't work out you've got an asset to sell to reclaim some of your costs.

Also, trailer doesnt have to mean 'greasy burger van' have a look at the booming street food scene, there's loads of cool souped up trailers/vans/buses offering quality food in quirky surroundings. As previously mentioned, you can take it to events, weddings, dog walking spots etc.

Good luck!

The problem with having a trailer is it limits you to when and where you work.
You still have to pay for your pitch and a big old van or MPV.
A static one( with established business) is usually sold for tens of thousands.
Get in touch with your local council and event organisers.
Anything is doable.

Check your driving licence before buying a large vehicle. Unless you passed your test many years ago, you may not be licenced to drive something 'big'.

This is like a crossroads with whingy scared people sitting on every corner going 'ooh I wouldn't go there.. I heard.. etc' but who haven't stepped away from the crossroads their whole life and are frightened that if someone proves its possible to leave the village their life is in vain!

Well, apart from the numerous people who have stepped away from the crossroads and are saying "There are lions down that road, I wouldn't really recommend going there unless you are good with lions. Try that road instead"

Again, massive thanks to all that have contributed to this thread so far. I'm very grateful that so many business savvy women are kindly giving me their take on it.

I'm going to post the details of a cafe that i'm going to view, can I have your opinion? It's just so I can have a look and get a feel for it, i'm not ready to jump into anything yet, obviously.

HairyOrk I'll PM you now, thank you so much for offering.

I have to say, the mobile catering van is the one I feel more comfortable with. I have a couple of spots in mind. First one is a factory, two of my friends husband's work there, they have thousands of employees. One of my friend's husband's told me that depending on where you are working it's not always possible to get to the canteen, it' s too far away. He said the only choice is the canteen on site or a packed lunch. Surely though there would be a catering van on site already if it was allowed? Second spot is a shopping centre that has a school opposite. Busy shopping centre, but has a subway and greggs. My plan for my business would be different than your standard ham sandwiches and sausage on toast, although the menu would be small.

Any other ideas of places I can look into? I know further up thread a couple of people mentioned a park. I have a small park local to me, and I also have some woods. I assume i'd need to speak to the council in relation to this?

The details for the cafe i'm taking a look at -

570 sq ft (53 sq m)

Opposite main Taxi rank alongside new Asda and XXX Shopping Centre

356,000 catchment area, 15,000 white collar workers within 750m

Significant ongoing regeneration including new HSE HQ, new Aldi, Asda and investment centre adjacent to bus terminus

Major Employers including HMRC, HSE, XXX Council in close proximity

Tenure: Leasehold
Modern cafe premises located within the new XXX development.

XXX has become a Landmark development at the heart of XXX's retail and commercial core with exceptional prominence to XXX Parade.

This striking mixed-use development comprises of 142 privately-owned luxury apartments and approximately 18,000 sq ft of ground floor retail and business space.

The quality of accommodation has already been acknowledged by XXX Housing, the NHS, Clark & Davidson Estate Agents and award-winning Harrison Hair Studio who now occupy over 80% of the ground floor space.

£5,995 PER ANNUM.

I think you should work in academic shop to gain experience first before you open your own. It is a very difficult business to succeed in. Wages are a huge factor and you should really be prepared to work as many hours as you can yourself to keep wage costs down.

^This is like a crossroads with whingy scared people sitting on every corner going 'ooh I wouldn't go there.. I heard.. etc' but who haven't stepped away from the crossroads their whole life and are frightened that if someone proves its possible to leave the village their life is in vain!

Well, apart from the numerous people who have stepped away from the crossroads and are saying "There are lions down that road, I wouldn't really recommend going there unless you are good with lions. Try that road instead"^

I've never run a cafe, but I do know that there are reliable statistics out there that demonstrate that the majority of new businesses of this type fail, mostly within a short timescale.

However, DP had his own shop for a couple of years and I helped a bit with it. With hindsight we didn't have a clue what we were doing or enough capital. We got screwed over by the landlord over a couple of issues and I would estimate that we lost about 20k in two years, in addition to him not really earning anything in that time.

Our credit records were ruined and we had to deal with multiple phone calls daily from debt collectors etc. In the end DP closed the shop and got a reasonably well paid job and we managed to remortgage out of the credit card debt (this would not be possible these days - about 10 years ago our (previously very cheap) house doubled in value in about 2 years and the banks were throwing mortgages at just about anyone).

In effect, we are still paying off this debt 10 years later, as our mortgage is larger than it would be without it. It was enormously stressful at the time and we probably got off lightly compared with a lot of other business failures - ie we didn't lose our house - many people do.

Yes, there will be people making a fortune out of various types of food service, but I would be willing to bet that many many more people either make very little (ie much less than minimum wage) or lose their initial investment in a year or two.

I agree that you should never open a business in something that you don't have working experience of. I worked for an accountant who opened a shop. A retailer, she was not. I have years of shop management experience & can see exactly where she's gone wrong. Having worked for others, I've also had the benefit of seeing a small business from the inside. The owner must be prepared to be hands-on, hire quality staff & probably wait a while for any money to come in.
The other thing that strikes me is the family aspect. Everybody would need a clearly defined role, or there could be trouble! I've seen siblings / cousins / parent & child fall out over joint business ventures.

In my old town I had a local bakery who did hot and cold sandwiches too great place and always busy. Then couple of women decided to open a sandwich and cake shop nearby. It was always empty. The cakes, cupcakes, were overpriced and the sandwiches were 50p more than the old bakery. It was easier to park and run in at this new shop so they'd get the odd van driver but they hadn't thought out their market. Imo.

I like the sound of a trailer near to a factory.
That would make good business sense, plus it would be saleable if you chose to move on to something "bigger".

I know of quite a few independent cafe's/coffee shops. Is the only way these people are surviving (and earning what appears to be a fairly decent living) because they are using it to "clean" money? Or because they have another decent income some way coming in? I just don't understand how most people in the line of work appear to be struggling massively.