Opening a sandwich bar/Coffee bar

[OctoberMoon]

I'm aware this is not an AIBU, but i've posted on two other more relevant sections on the board and there's no traffic!

In the very, very early planning stage of hoping to eventually open a sandwich/coffee bar. After some information and advice if anyone here either runs one, works in one or knows a bit about it?

I have about 15k available to start me off (This is not a loan and won't need paying back to anyone) My idea is slightly different than a standard sandwich/coffee place but don't want to divulge too much info incase i'm outed.

In terms of staff, i'd be there running it as much as childcare would allow. I have 2 family members who are already in catering (and have the relevant food hygiene certificates required) who are hoping to get on board and work alongside me.

The questions I want to know the answers to will probably make me come across as extremely naive and lazy! I'm aware I could find the answers to these questions myself through market research etc, and I will, but i'm hoping those in the know may help me out a little? As I say, I am in the very early planning stages. The questions I want to know the answer to are -

Could my staff be self employed, responsible for their own tax and NI? Or do I need to be their employer?

I'm aware that location is the deciding factor as to whether this fails or succeeds. I'm thinking being close to other businesses/schools would be my best bet? Any tips of what I should look for in terms of location?

I want to start pricing equipment, is there a wholesale place that anyone could recommend? What's the best way to source produce in bulk?

Where can I find out more about what regulations I need to follow to open one? And more info on what qualifications or courses are needed in order to be able to safely work with food?

Any other info you can provide or any hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and i'll have to try and make it AIBU, so am I being unreasonable and bloody stupid to think that this could work and make me a fairly decent living?

How about a lunch wagon type set up, near an industrial estate?

I love my deep fill sandwich maker, and am passionate about food, but not that much . . .

I've worked in catering for years.I don't think you can ever compete with the big chains now.

I work in a college coffee shop but some of the college staff walk past the college cafe to go and buy a costa coffee from across the road.

It's all about the brand.

You ran a successful business yet have no idea how to pay an employee? Tad confused about that... Anyhow..
If I were you i'd go to college, No,I'm really not taking the mick. Go and do a business course at a local college, otherwise your 15k will go down the drain faster than you can say BLT and you'll be left in a good 5-6k of debt.
These figures are based on my area.
Equipment rental- £3000 per month (This includes heaters, freezers, fridges, coffee machines, those XXL egg poaching machines, toasters)
Land rental- £1300 a month, MINIMUM.
Having one employee- £800 a month on minimum wage, unless you hire an under 18 or pay apprentice wages.
Decorating before you open up (Signs, wall painting, retiling) We'll just call that £700 a month.
Supplies such as bread, milk, sandwich fillings etc etc etc- Probably about £600 a month. Not sure if you will have to pay upfront fees, deposits etc as it varies but you can add that on too.and tax. and insurance. take out of that YOUR spending. your own home, your family etc. your 15k will be gone in 2 months. its a massive risk and you shouldn't take that right now. Study, learn your target market, Learn about liability, being an employer, save up, then consider.

I think that chippednailvarnish offers sound advice here

I think also if you want to maintain a solid local business, it really pays to invest in your staff and generate some loyalty there, am quite aghast you would consider employing staff on a self-employed basis, despite the legal wrongness, it does not bid well for your vision of the business.

Please also consider the costs, training etc of implementing the necessary health & safety measures. Ensuring that your staff are appropriately trained, maintain the correct documents daily and that all your production areas and equipment comply comes at a cost.

It strikes me that while it is wonderful to read of your passin for food and coffee , you need to get very realistic at the business aspect of things. If you have previously run a successful business you will understand the importance of location, a consistent and affluent footfall, competent staff and suppliers, cashflow etc. This all takes a lot of sandwiches to pay for, whether you are serving wraps, paninis, toasties or whatever, you must do some extensive research and training as £15k will get eaten almost as quickly as one of your best sarnies!

Best of luck with whatever you do..... ;-)

I do know a fair bit about business

But not enough to know the basics of employment law? Self-employed waitresses - come on! They get paid little enough in the first place.

OP - take what Chipping said. £15k won't even buy the equipment.

There's no traffic on other parts of the board precisely BECAUSE people post everything in AIBU, and some people only ever go and look in AIBU.

Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

The thing is that coffee shops would make money if it wasn't for the stupidly high price of rents.

All of the businesses I know that make money have their own freehold premises and they live above the shop/cafe

'I think I just love being around coffee and food' but not passionate enough about business to have researched for several years? Do you like hard work - really hard work?

A close friend of mine owns a cafe, if she could sell it she would.
They struggle every month and various crises beyond their control seem to happen on a regular basis - fridge breakdown, roof leak, regulations changing to mean that their kitchen that has been fine for years now needs £2000 spending on it immediately or they will have to close. A local employer went bust and put a large section of their custom out of work
They haven't had a holiday in 10 years and she is knackered .
Loving food is great ( as my large arse proves) but there are better ways to throw away £15000

The business I ran required no staff, I ran it myself. The reason I have asked about self employment is that it would be family members working for me at first, and they have other part time jobs. I thought it MIGHT be easier if they were self employed. As I have mentioned, a few times, it's very early days & i've not looked into this properly yet, hence this thead. Of course I will do the appropriate research.

I've found a small full fitted cafe, rent is 6k per annum, it's opposite a shopping centre and it's located within a building that houses other business's. It's a rough area though. May take a look?

Worth a look for sure - that sounds incredibly cheap (could be I'm just so used to city prices).

There would be a lot of hours to cover, needing at least 2 staff on at all times (maybe more at peak times) and such early starts. I start work at 5.30am.

I think you have this idea of running it whilst the kids are in school and then having employees do the rest. Anyone who has ever run a food service business can tell you the reality is so far from that.

A friend of mine, gay, never married, no kids, just sold the premises (which he owned outright after changing careers from accountancy) of his very successful sandwich bar/cafe to a chain. He ran it for 16 years and practically lived there (in fact he lived in the loft apartment building above the shops). It was in no way a school hours/term time job. He invested way more than £15k in it and was lucky to have profited in the end.

He always saw it just what it was: a business.

If you have worked in a cafe/coffee shop before as an employee, why not simply do that again?

You are guaranteed to make minimum wage, plus perhaps tips and discounts.

As others have said, the chances of making any more money as a business owner are 1 in a hundred at best.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned that I always wonder about food establishments - how much food wastage is there. You'll have to buy in loads of stock to offer even the simplest menu, and if you don't sell it all, it goes off in as little as a few days.

I know NOTHING about the coffee shop industry but businesses I know of that do well are:

Greasy spoon "caff" near an industrial estate that sells breakfasts and burger type meals to workers and passing trade.

Sandwich van that drives round to various offices that are not particularly near any eating facilities and sells lunches and snacks to office workers.

High end coffee shop which sells very expensive coffees and naice cakes etc to yummy mummies (posh town) BUT has kids play facilities, kids cutlery, kids meals, has a special play area where kids can charge around without being underfoot. It works because you can take your kids there and relax!

No expertise here whatsoever, just an idea,what about one of those vans outside shops that sell jacket potatoes, coffee and sandwiches, stuff like that? Smaller and easier to manage maybe?

What about buffet catering? Food made to order, so more predictable. Do you have businesses nearby that have meetings/training courses? Otherwise parties/conferences etc.

I know fancy coffee seems like a high margin product, but you probably need to sell an awful lot of them to cover the costs of buying and running a commercial quality machine.

It sounds a nice idea but only an idea. I'm not trying to be harsh but you don't sound like you have anywhere near enough knowledge of the market nor of business in this area. Being able to run your own one man business is miles apart from this. Before you even think of spending money, slow down and do some proper research and get some training. Put that £15k to better use by doing a course.

Hmm - we use the local deli/sandwich place for buffet catering at work. It's a small town and the standard of the food is okay, but they don't really get what people want beyond sandwiches. I can spot a Costco platter of anything at 1000 paces too - I assume it's more cost-effective to buy some of that stuff than make from scratch. I don't see the satisfaction in doing that if you are passionate about food.

Any business where the main raw materials are perishable and the labour intensive to make it into the end product is costly to run and difficult to make money from - particularly as customer perceptions of added value are swayed by what they can buy the raw materials for themselves in supermarkets.

Could you do this on a trial/part-time basis - maybe a stall at a Farmer's Market or a Christmas market? That way you focus on your love of food and not on the business itself so much.

op,

I have just recently left working for an "independent coffee/sandwich/bar/jazz club" all very different and nothing like it around here. We were making £200 a day. Maybe more on a weekend.

They will not last the year and they have a lot of disposable income... (solicitors) and that's going to run dry soon.

Please think very carefully about this. Please. I know you believe in your idea but it's sometimes not enough, no matter how much money you have.

If you are seriously going to do this and won't take on the advice above from pp, please make sure you get your equipment from the right places (pm me if you need help).

Make sure you have someone food allergen trained as you need to display a list of allergen in all food and drink you sell.

You will need at least one first aider on site at all times to.

EHO are shit hot at the moment and you need to have all your paperwork, fridge temps etc complete and up to date at all times as well as meticulous hygiene and cross contamination procedures.

I wouldn't do it.

If you're serious about this you need to be serious about your research, business plan etc. and I mean spend hours doing this before you do anything else.

Seriously, I genuinely am grateful for every reply, they have all given me something to think about and take on board. Thank you.

TryHarderDelivering lunches is something i'll have a think about.

Shelbyville That's actually a brilliant suggestion. It could be like a mini version of what i'd hoped to do. I'll have to try and find some info on these. I imagine they are much less of a commitment.

My Dad used to own a couple of burger vans, he would operate them on football match days near to the football ground. This was years ago, I was only a teenager, I remember they did really well. He only stopped operating because he moved away. Perhaps this is something I could look into and speak to my Dad about, but rather than operating as a greasy burger van I could sell the kind of food I wanted my place to sell?

I have seen indies survive, to be fair. Here in Oxford Taylor's has survived and even expanded, but to be honest, you'll probably get a record deal and a world tour as a breakthrough rap artist sooner than you'll succeed in the indie coffee/sandwich bar business, especially as you have no background in the industry or any financial management awareness.

I know this sounds harsh, but running your own business is APPALLINGLY hard, and statistically, doomed to failure anyway. I know this from grim experience. If I had 15k and wanted to be self employed this time next year, I would spend it on intensive training and get a serious vocational qualification in something related to finance or IT and then set up as a freelancer. Or web design. This time next year you could have your own web design business with zero overheads.

Spend the money on training and you are guaranteed SOMETHING at the end of your 15k (a usable qualification) whereas investing it in a business about which you know nothing and you are highly likely to lose it all.