Opening a sandwich bar/Coffee bar

[OctoberMoon]

I'm aware this is not an AIBU, but i've posted on two other more relevant sections on the board and there's no traffic!

In the very, very early planning stage of hoping to eventually open a sandwich/coffee bar. After some information and advice if anyone here either runs one, works in one or knows a bit about it?

I have about 15k available to start me off (This is not a loan and won't need paying back to anyone) My idea is slightly different than a standard sandwich/coffee place but don't want to divulge too much info incase i'm outed.

In terms of staff, i'd be there running it as much as childcare would allow. I have 2 family members who are already in catering (and have the relevant food hygiene certificates required) who are hoping to get on board and work alongside me.

The questions I want to know the answers to will probably make me come across as extremely naive and lazy! I'm aware I could find the answers to these questions myself through market research etc, and I will, but i'm hoping those in the know may help me out a little? As I say, I am in the very early planning stages. The questions I want to know the answer to are -

Could my staff be self employed, responsible for their own tax and NI? Or do I need to be their employer?

I'm aware that location is the deciding factor as to whether this fails or succeeds. I'm thinking being close to other businesses/schools would be my best bet? Any tips of what I should look for in terms of location?

I want to start pricing equipment, is there a wholesale place that anyone could recommend? What's the best way to source produce in bulk?

Where can I find out more about what regulations I need to follow to open one? And more info on what qualifications or courses are needed in order to be able to safely work with food?

Any other info you can provide or any hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and i'll have to try and make it AIBU, so am I being unreasonable and bloody stupid to think that this could work and make me a fairly decent living?

I have had my own service industry/retail businesses since I was 21. I am now 47.

Work out how much you think it will cost to set up then double that figure.

IMO you are insane

I think you're nuts too.

Quickest way to a poverty stricken nervous breakdown imo.

ok a quick tot up.....

Premises with A2 use if you want to cook food as well, in good location you pay more

Fitting out premises

Business rates
water rates
energy costs
waste removal
insurance
employers liability insurance

staff - you have to employ them or they have to be equal partners in a Ltd company ( you could ask if they are willing to invest, if yes then maybe its a goer, if no then that may tell you something )

Assuming you employ...

PAYE & paying at least minimum wage
NI contributions
Paid Holiday - 5.something weeks a year
maternity leave if they fall preggies
pension scheme, 5 or more employees

Never underestimate the amount of paperwork employees need, contracts, letters, health and safety booklets, someone in charge of health and safety booklets, someone to complain to, payslips, keeping track of holidays, maternity arrangements, sick pay, pay rises, and on and on....

cost of sales eg bread, butter, coffee, cakes etc etc etc

Your own childcare costs (been there), getting up at the crack of dawn (been there), working 7 days a week ( been there ), not taking enough money (been there), dreadful employees (been there), having to fire people without getting taken to a tribunal (been there) and so on and so on.

Please just add up the amount of sarnies you are going to have to sell to even scrape the surface and god forbid you accidently poison someone with an ambulance chasing lawyer

I doubt £15k will go far in purchasing or leasing a mobile catering van, pitch fee, electricity, staff, raw materials etc.

But it will go further than in a cafe.

Blimey - i feel a bit sorry for the OP and can't help but wonder, based on this thread why there are any independent coffee shops at all if it us so shite.

Yes the op might have to re think her ideas but at least she has some!

Where i live, i can count 15 independent cafes and one costa. (smallish sea side town). They all seem well established and doing really well.

ok so it is a bit of a naice tourist spot in the south east but they get a lot of regular local trade too. Costa doesn't seem to have made that much of an impact as lets be honest, it serves crap coffee and shit pre processed food. people want fresh ingredients preferably local.

i guess it would very much depend on your target market.

i imagine 15k wouldn't go far though. i would talk to a business advisor about your ideas.

I know of a chain of 4 cafés in the local area where I live, they started off as I think in a pub And catering (kids parties etc), then ditched that and set up a station cafe and then another one a 10 minute walk away but next to a huge park so good for dog walkers and also very child friendly (popular with mums). They then branched out into a platform station cafe/kiosk and another cafe in a park in a town about 20 mins drive away (up and coming yummy mummy area).

These people are sisters (twins) and married and sometimes employed their DHs for cover. They employ now students/school kids of workable age as well as standalone chefs/managers and I think they take a back seat now since they both had children.

I will say this long hours, as owner you have to cover when staff don't turn up.

And they picked their locations/target market well and also most important were always friendly and cheerful. The previous station cafe owner was the most miserable woman on the planet who could barely smile/be friendly (despite running the cafe) so when the new one opened it was a breath of fresh air.

They also started with sandwiches, breakfast food, cake but include soup now that you can heat up and porridge, yoghurt with seeds/honey etc. They cover all bases.... Also their target customers have the money and time for their food/drinks.

Think about it seriously and good luck!

lem they might appear to be doing well, but is the owner making any money?

If they don't make enough profit to pay themselves at least minimum wage for the hours they put in, is it worth it?

Lots of small businesses are started off using an inheritence, redundancy payment, or remortgage. Statistics show that the vast majority fail within the first few years. If the business fails, that money is lost forever.

You have to take a lot of money to cover the overheads, it is extremely hard work, with little chance of time off, and the chance of it succeeding are quite small.

Your town must be quite unusual, because in most of the UK, the overwhelming evidence is that most people want chains.

I haven't read the whole thread but I really think you have to offer something accessible & different. Where I live there was an independent coffee shop - OK but a bit cold & damp feeling and not very cosy. Some how didn't quite cut it. Did ok because that was all there was. A few years down the line there ISA Costa opposite - big shop, big comfy sofas - room for school run mummies and buggies and is always busy. The independent is always empty & I don't know how they can carry on. Has slid towards more of a greasy spoon so maybe they get enough trade like that, I don't know. In New Zealand they seem to get it right with cafes.

With the mobile side of the coffe business there are somethings to consider,
If you're looking at setting up on a fixed site you will be paying pitch fees. The cost of these will depend on who owns the land and the area. Councils are the most expensive in my experience, a friend of mine pays £25000 pa for his spot, also the pitch is only for a year so you are not guaranteed to keep your place.
I stay mobile traveling around industrial estates and office blocks offering quality tea/coffee soup and freshly made sandwiches. I also offer platters and fresh cakes.
It's not easy and has took a few years to build and keep ahead of the competition, my day starts at 5.00am preparing sandwiches/platters/ fresh soup that has been ordered by text/email. I finish at 14.00 then its cleaning/restocking, preparing for next days orders.
I have 3 vans now and after 5 years I'm starting to make a decent income but it has been hard.
The advice i would give is get a good bookeeper, research the area you want to set up in, check the competition and make sure the goods you're offering are top quality and priced realistically and finally get a basic food hygiene certificate it is important if you're handling food.
Good luck whatever you decide

OP, are you prepared to compromise on your product vision to give a range of customers what they want?

"I say I live in a Village, I do, but it's housed within a City."

With respect, that ain't a village.

I live in a village - a proper village with countryside either side and no street lights on the winding roads into and out of the village. We have one pub, one shop, an outstanding (top 20) primary school and a methodist church and that is it for facilities.

would your idea work for location catering for events, meetings etc? so you'd just need a small kitchen unit (or work from your home kitchen if you can bring it up to EH standards)

would your idea work for location catering for events, meetings etc? so you'd just need a small kitchen unit (or work from your home kitchen if you can bring it up to EH standards)

I have a cafe
It's in a proper village , you have to drive here . Lots of free parking though

I work here full time , and have a part timer in between 11 and 3

Wages go through HMRC

Costs are horrendous

I don't rent ( I own )

We have rural rate relief , so rates are minimal

We have to pay for rubbish to be collected separately

Nisbets are good for equipment , though we just bought a large domestic oven , there was already a big range cooker .
I have a small microwave and a toasted sandwich maker .

The environmental health officer will be no help at all , but will call after you've opened and criticise everything

You'll need a pest control contract as well joys of rural life !

I bought loads of vintage china from charity shops ,
A very expensive coffee machine , cups and saucers and teapots from the local cash & carry
They will also deliver to me twice a week , and the development chef and my territory manager came out free of charge to help and advise

£15000 will disappear. Very quickly .
But good luck !

onilklymoor - thankfully it is. Apart from 2 cafes out of the 15 that i counted - i had forgotten to include at least two. They are all long standing businesses that have been open for as long as i can remember. i would presume that the owners are not simply charitable souls that like to see people enjoying their food. They appear to be doing ok. I don't for one minute think thst it isn't beyond hard work and certainly not something for the light of heart and light of pocket. people do make a good go of cafes etc. To be fair my town is pretty anti-chain although id be quite happy with a greggs as their steak bakes are lush. Their coffee, not so much.

This thread reminds me of the threads in the doghouse where someone asks if they should get a dog. There will be a barrage of posters clamouring to tell the op how mad they are and how they couldn't possibly look after a goldfish let alone a man eating poodle.

I worked in catering for many years, and loved it. Over that period I worked alongside two people who were working in the business ahead of setting up on their own, to gain experience and test the waters before ploughing their life savings into the black hole that is a restaurant.

One decided it wasn't for him, the other went ahead and is doing pretty well a decade on. What both gained in addition to the knowledge and skills was a bit of extra money, by saving their earnings (both had full time day jobs elsewhere, in completely different fields).

I'd advise anyone tempted to set up a café or restaurant to do the same.

Something which is currently big in the Far East is being a private chef catering for gourmet dinner parties. You cook in the clients home and use their facilities so you can keep your overheads low. Also most work is in the evenings so you're dp can look after dcs. You do need to be near a big city with wealthy people for it to be profitable though. Private chefs also tend to be recommended word of mouth.

This thread reminds me of the threads in the doghouse where someone asks if they should get a dog. There will be a barrage of posters clamouring to tell the op how mad they are and how they couldn't possibly look after a goldfish let alone a man eating poodle.

Is this really what you get from this thread?
Just goes to show, how different peoples take on something can be.
, adding that so you don't think I am being snippy.

pretty much Iam, sadly they are probably right (and in the dog house as well) :)

lemis Thank you for your posts. I have to be honest, looking at my thread it's mostly doom & gloom. Why the fuck can't it work? With the right location & in choosing a place that doesn't have astronomical rent & business rates? There'd be no independent places at all if everyone had the same negative attitude.

I do appreciate everyone taking the time to reply, whether the response has been negative or positive, it's give me so much to think about.

I'm toying with the idea of a mobile catering van, although according to my Dad (who ran his own catering van years ago) Our Council are pricks & it may be difficult to go down this road.

Still not put off perhaps trying a small cafe (Again, it's slightly different than your standard cafe, going for a more American approach) And after some re-shuffling it looks like much more than 15k can be invested. As long as it's breaking even, that's all that will matter for the first 2 years....

The independent places left are the survivors - far more fail than succeed.

If you want to go ahead, the key is to know what will make you cut your losses, if it comes to that,

By the way, there was an American themed place near where I used to live: it lasted less than a year. A second place was very popular, opened a second outlet in the next village - and had to close that within a year.

Do you know what it takes to break even - as a PP said , how many sales per hour at peak and non peak times, to cover ALL costs?

Not yet, but it will be thoroughly looked into before any decision is made. With regards to the American reference, I don't mean a diner, but i'd rather not go into detail.

an old railway carriage? I'd love an american style diner in an old railway carriage!

I can imagine eating eggs benedict with the bestest coffee in the world, chatting away to the proprietor and george clooney sits down beside me..............................sigh