Opening a sandwich bar/Coffee bar

[OctoberMoon]

I'm aware this is not an AIBU, but i've posted on two other more relevant sections on the board and there's no traffic!

In the very, very early planning stage of hoping to eventually open a sandwich/coffee bar. After some information and advice if anyone here either runs one, works in one or knows a bit about it?

I have about 15k available to start me off (This is not a loan and won't need paying back to anyone) My idea is slightly different than a standard sandwich/coffee place but don't want to divulge too much info incase i'm outed.

In terms of staff, i'd be there running it as much as childcare would allow. I have 2 family members who are already in catering (and have the relevant food hygiene certificates required) who are hoping to get on board and work alongside me.

The questions I want to know the answers to will probably make me come across as extremely naive and lazy! I'm aware I could find the answers to these questions myself through market research etc, and I will, but i'm hoping those in the know may help me out a little? As I say, I am in the very early planning stages. The questions I want to know the answer to are -

Could my staff be self employed, responsible for their own tax and NI? Or do I need to be their employer?

I'm aware that location is the deciding factor as to whether this fails or succeeds. I'm thinking being close to other businesses/schools would be my best bet? Any tips of what I should look for in terms of location?

I want to start pricing equipment, is there a wholesale place that anyone could recommend? What's the best way to source produce in bulk?

Where can I find out more about what regulations I need to follow to open one? And more info on what qualifications or courses are needed in order to be able to safely work with food?

Any other info you can provide or any hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and i'll have to try and make it AIBU, so am I being unreasonable and bloody stupid to think that this could work and make me a fairly decent living?

Caveat to what I'm about to say: I agree with all the posters saying don't do it.

But, seeing your last post about the burger (but not burgers, apparently) van, I've got one other thing for you to consider. Not the football crowds, but if you can find a popular dog-walking venue, and get permission from the landowner, you might be able to run a limited-hours van there. I say this because a very entrepreneurial bod near me did just that. She parks the van up in the carpark of some local woods, and does a roaring trade with the dog walkers (and people who are just going to the woods, like us).

No idea if you have a suitable location near you, and obviously the permission thing will be a biggie, but this enterprise has been running over five years, so I guess they make a living.

There is a fantastic van near me called heaven and hell (or similar). They sell different food to your usual burger van and make a killing.

So that could be a viable option for you.

Looking at your last post, another few options I would start to explore that have popped into my head...

• You say your from a village, I am assuming there are lots of other villages near by, I would look into setting up a different day/night in each village- you expand your potential customers.
• Really good food from a van, look into America for ideas they seem to have lots of independents that do this, think this isnt just a burger van, this is an octobermoon burger van, I would spend money for a good take away made well with nice ingredients- take aways (around here) do not meet that.

mrsgrinch I need to move near you!

I have a spare room

they may have a website. Their cajun chicken baguette is unreal

Pizza slice van outside a nightclub

Buy pizzas from Costco - sell em at £3 a slice. Pissed people buy anything.

I have a spare room
Excellent, I will pay your rent in heaven and hell food!

What bloody brilliant ideas, thank you so much. A catering van may be the perfect solution!

msgrinch Can I ask where this van located, not geographically if you'd rather not say, I mean is it by a school, businesses etc? Any idea what the website is?

mixedpeel I do have somewhere near me like that, getting permission from the council is another matter but it's certainly given me food for thought.

Iamtitanium I say I live in a Village, I do, but it's housed within a City. American inspiration is exactly what i'm looking for.

Now it's a case of finding out how I can get permission etc. The council may not allow me to put it near any of the places that are now running through my mind.

m.facebook.com/HellsKtchenSnackVan?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FHellsKtchenSnackVan

I have just RTFT and I see you hop from one idea to another. I don't want to sound harsh, but it sounds to me like you have thought of this 'different' food/coffee idea and just dream to make it happen without really considering the implications. As the accountant pp said, you need to work out your costs and see how much you would need to sell per hour to be breaking even. (Even though your first year will almost definitely show as a loss down to the start up costs)
The fully kitted cafe you mentioned, I worked with that, loosely. (As I have no idea how many it seats) I would presume most of your initial 15k would go on redecorating, signs and menus etc, licenses, staff training, ensuring your establishment was clean and workworthy. Plus hefty deposits of rent and other equipment you may need to rent, replace or buy. So some basic costs-

• Rent - £6,000 pa
• Staffing costs - £39,780 pa (this is just for the cafe to have 2 staff and be open 7-5 6 days a week for 51 weeks in the year. You can do the calculating of tax, holiday, sick pay etc)
• Stock - £22,440 pa (Based on the figure of £440 a week average, given by my friendly cafe owner this morning. His cafe seats about 20 at a time. How weird that we even discussed this today of all days?!)
• Utilities - £9,180 pa (Although this is just gas and electric. I am not sure AT ALL about water) So far, not many overheads are calculated, least of all what you expect to pay yourself. If its minimum wage for a full time working week say 40 hours though you will more likely be putting in 80 , we could add another £13,260 pa Anyway, just the costs above (before you paying yourself) would mean you needed to be taking £25.29 each and every hour between 7-5 (or 6-4 whatever) just to be achieving a great big 0 on your balance sheet. So with extra costs, that will only go up. And with the inevitable 'quiet' hours, you could need to be making twice, or even triple that! I copied a link, don't know if it will work, but it looked useful. I wouldn't do this if I were you btw. www.howtostartacoffeeshop.co.uk/idea-of-costs.html

You could start small, from a van as others have said or just selling teas and coffees and cakes, part time, on your own, and grow slowly.

If it is family members who will be working then you could form a partnership or company which will mean you are not employing them in the normal sense - you might need advice about how this would work or read up on it but it isn't very complicated. You would have a lot to agree with them up front though eg about profit and how it is used or divided.

Many really successful places will tell you how they started and may have tips for negotiating rent etc.

Some of the most successful companies started as a hair brained idea, according to their websites : )

surely rough area means no money to spare for cafes?

isitreallynecessary thank you for all that information, i'll take a good look.

I Own a share of a small cafe with a friend never invest with a friend

He's worked his nuts off for three years, has borrowed & begged money from family and friends to keep it afloat and it's only just starting to break even.

Friend and I are both quite clever, business savvy people who did all of the sums first. Friend is an AMAZING cook with a passion for it. It's been quite the journey.

I don't know if I'll ever get my cash back

One thing that has hit a note in our office is freshly delivered sandwich packs. You can choose your sandwich/ salad etc and it changes all the time and snacks and drinks etc. They then bring them to you around lunchtime. It's thriving at our place and she's just taken on 2 new staff to cope with demand. Maybe you could consider something like that?

Carrie has a very good point. The non burger van I mentioned earlier does a similar thing.

My friend has a coffee shop... She spends a lot of time baking etc, doesn't make hardly any money, despite being a busy shop!!

2 years on and they are looking to sell.

High quality 'street food' from vans is all the rage these days. They have them in a local shopping centre on rotation.

trinityleeds.com/whats-on/latest-trinity-kitchen-street-food-line

There's one of those vans on my route to work, they have recently expanded to a coffee shop now

Dame Kelly Holmes has recently opened a cafe close to where I live. I am intrigued to see how it pans out (think she might have spent a bit more than 15k on the refit though).

Really, really think hard about this OP

Many thanks for all replies. I think a mobile catering van is the direction i'm headed now thanks to some great Mumsnet advice.

I suppose I need to ring the Council to find out more? I imagine it will be a nightmare trying to get permission for a spot that i'd like, but can only try.

When you are doing your budgeting make sure you budget an income for yourself, especially over the winter months if your work is likely to be seasonal.

Working all hours in your shop and earning no income from it is a hobby, not a job.

go for it. good luck with it all. pm me if you need any help.

Best wishes, please let us know how your getting on!