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AIBU?

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To ask you all to sign petition regarding Oldham and Ched Evans

999 replies

floatyflo · 04/01/2015 18:48

Actually I don't believe I am being unreasonable. But wanted to bring it to attention.

MN seems to be a quiet on this today but I think the fight should still go on. I can't link to it as I am so not tech savvy enough but it is on change.org. (Same person whk set up the Sheffield Weds one so of you sogned that one it is pretty easy to locate).Already has over 9000 signatures so please please please continue to sign and share!

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 05/01/2015 15:50

I'm rather hoping some of you will join me on Twitter to ask them some questions.

Twenty6 · 05/01/2015 15:50

Obviously, House.

I was just interested in the implication from certain quarters that football fans need educating more than those of any other sport. Obviously.

Inthedarkaboutfashion · 05/01/2015 15:52

Is a job at Oldham athletic really a high profile position that will provide him with lots of money and adulation? It's just a question BTW, i am not insinuating anything.
How many fans does the club have? Do they have any well known players (I can't think of anybody who plays for them and I am not clueless about football or football players).
I would have thought if he wanted adulation and high earning potential he wouldn't be signing for Oldham athletic. Yes, he could do a different job and has been offered one but if I don't think it would be wise to work for his FIL as it could see his business go down the pan (based on public opinion of the clubs that have wanted to sign him).
Maybe part of the reason for differing opinions is that some people don't see footballers as role models or figures to be adored and don't see football as a profession more worthy than others (albeit much better paid at the top level).

Chunderella · 05/01/2015 15:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

iamtheeggman · 05/01/2015 15:57

I have thought about this a lot, so I hope this doesn't get flamed.

Uncomfortable though it may be, it is perfectly possible that another jury that listened to the same evidence may have acquitted CE, or at least failed to reach a verdict, and we would not be having this debate on these terms. It was a "difficult case".

Personally, I believe that he was properly convicted and should not have a job in professional football in this country until either his conviction is quashed by the CCRC (which, in my view, seems unlikely) or he admits his guilt, shows remorse and condemns the victim-hounders (you might argue that he should also serve his full sentence first, i.e. no longer be on licence, but this is perhaps the most likely condition to be fulfilled first in any event).

The verdict turned first on whether the victim consented, something that she herself cannot remember (and it is important the memory loss does not of itself imply that she was too drunk to consent).

If she did not consent, then it also turned on whether CE's incorrect belief that she had consented was a reasonable belief. In my view, it is much harder to side with CE on this second point, in light of the fact pattern. This is the point that got the other defendant acquitted. The first question of these two is, in my view and I think most others', the more controversial.

Of course, the jury that did consider the evidence did convict CE. They did find that the victim was too drunk to consent and they did not find that CE's belief that she had consented was reasonable.

However, like it or not, he continues to believe that she did consent and that his belief to this effect is reasonable (either of which would have been good enough to acquit him - from his perspective they are one and the same question).

There is no moral reason why people may not read the fact pattern (as set out in the court reports, not as set out by him) and take a contrary view to that of the jury, i.e. say that if they were one of the twelve, they would have acquitted CE. Taking that view doesn't change the verdict, of course.

It is important to note that this case is VERY unusual in comparison to other rape cases, because taking this view doesn't even necessarily suggest that you don't believe the victim (as you aren't disputing any facts asserted by her - she has no idea whether she consented or not). It certainly doesn't suggest that you blame the victim. The trial judge said that he thought that she was too drunk to consent, but that was merely his view and it was for the jury to decide what their view was. They happened to agree with the judge.

In my mind, I separate the verdict (guilty) from my opinion of what happened (also guilty). I don't disagree with the verdict, but if I did, I think I would still have to respect it and conclude that, as an unrepentant convicted rapist, he should not be allowed to play professional football in this country at this time. To do otherwise makes the verdict meaningless.

I guess what I am saying is that it is perfectly possible for someone to take an informed view of the facts and say that they don't think he should have been convicted. I am not for a moment saying that everyone on this thread has done this, but it is not impossible to think that he should not have been convicted of rape.

What I am not saying is that victim blaming is in any way ok.

This is a very unfortunate case to use to highlight rape injustice in general, because disagreeing with the verdict in this case amounts neither to victim blaming nor disbelieving her. Victim blaming and disbelieving complainants is by far a bigger issue than the unusual questions that determined CE's guilt in this case.

YonicSleighdriver · 05/01/2015 15:59

eggman, I think that's a very considered post. I agree in particular with this:

"I don't disagree with the verdict, but if I did, I think I would still have to respect it and conclude that, as an unrepentant convicted rapist, he should not be allowed to play professional football in this country at this time. To do otherwise makes the verdict meaningless."

Chunderella · 05/01/2015 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LineRunner · 05/01/2015 16:05

Iamtheeggman, actually none of know if Evans 'continues to believe that she did consent'.

We only know that that is that is what he is choosing to say.

LineRunner · 05/01/2015 16:06

Sorry so many typos.

YonicSleighdriver · 05/01/2015 16:10

True, Liney.

I do think CE believes all (young, attractive and drunk) women are in an ongoing state of consent to (wealthy and physically fit) footballers though. I also think CM believes that.

Inthedarkaboutfashion · 05/01/2015 16:17

chunderella you are right about some things and maybe I don't fully understand footballers being adored or seen as role models. My DH is a huge football fan but he doesn't see any footballer as a role model or adored figure. He might admire exceptional football skills but that is as far as it goes. We have raised our children to not see sportspeople or music stars or actors etc as role models as so many of them are fucked up and do fucked up things. We think the best role models are those who add something personally to our children's lives and provide a direct point of ambition, people who our children know personally.
For those reasons I don't understand the outcry of CE returning to football. To me it is just another job, albeit sometimes very well paid.

Twenty6 · 05/01/2015 16:19

Oldham's average gate, at a guess, is about 4,000. It's not exactly a club at the head of British sporting influence.

To those who are nit-picking. "Put them in jail" is a figure of speech. I'm sure you're very much acquainted with the phrase and with what was meant by it within the context given.

ilovesooty · 05/01/2015 16:23

Oldham have a history and used to be higher profile, more successful and better attended.

I don't think they should touch Evans with a barge pole if they value their reputation.

YonicSleighdriver · 05/01/2015 16:23

Twenty, it is not nitpicking to point out that the complainant in a rape case is a witness; the justice system puts people in jail.

What put CE in jail was evidence from hotel staff, CM, CCTV, the taxi driver, the friends and family filming the incidence and his own testimony. The victim's testimony did not place him at the scene or speak to what he did at the scene.

So it might be a colloquialism but it's a thoroughly inaccurate one.

iamtheeggman · 05/01/2015 16:25

LineRunner I see where you are coming from but I don't think it is easy to maintain the line that he knew she wasn't consenting and is now lying about that. In other words, he think he is innocent. If you think that he thinks he is guilty but is lying, then fine, but there isn't any evidence to support that.

So if she did not consent but he believes she did, there is an objective test of that belief. The jury found, and many other people find, that belief to be unreasonable, i.e. he thought that she did consent but he was unreasonable in that belief.

As my posts stated, in my view, that isn't the controversial question in this case, as the facts suggest it was an unreasonable view. The key question is whether she actually consented or not, and on that point there is conflicting evidence, although none of it comes from the victim.

Yonic you are alleging that CM is guilty, when he was found innocent. The jury didn't agree with you, because the victim's conduct gave him reasonable grounds (other than his status as a rich, physically fit footballer) to believe that she did consent, even if she in fact did not. Again, that's fine, but others may voice an informed belief that CE is innocent. I am not suggesting that you have flamed others for taking this view, but you have illustrated my point.

Jjou · 05/01/2015 16:30

The comments below the line on the Guardian are, for the most part, horrific and depressing. Most seem to believe in a miscarriage of justice for 'poor' Ched, and a belief that he's somehow paid for his crime (not that he committed one really) and should be allowed to continue a career in a public, visible and well-paid role. It's only a feminist agenda and a public witch-hunt that prevents him doing this.

I despair.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 05/01/2015 16:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicSleighdriver · 05/01/2015 16:32

Hmmm, I don't think I am (although I do happen to think that)

With my comment to Liney, I wasn't speaking of a legal level of proof; I do think that CE and CM (remember CM professes to believe in CE's innocence) had a distinct sense of entitlement that the world owes rich footballers good looking young women and that their default position is that a good looking young woman would want to have sex with them.

In this specific instance, CM may well have asked questions etc that led him to his belief in her consent to sex with him. I don't know enough about the evidence re CM. But his text to CE then his complete lack of disquiet at CE turning up speaks volumes about his assumption that "woman is in state of consent to any rich footballer"

Twenty6 · 05/01/2015 16:33

If it's not nit-picking then it's patronising Yonic. I'm more than aware that the complainant in a court case is a witness but I suspect that you guessed as much anyway. I doubt that the nit-picking would occur if I held the MN majority view.

"This is a very unfortunate case to use to highlight rape injustice in general, because disagreeing with the verdict in this case amounts neither to victim blaming nor disbelieving her. Victim blaming and disbelieving complainants is by far a bigger issue than the unusual questions that determined CE's guilt in this case."

That sums it up for me.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 05/01/2015 16:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicSleighdriver · 05/01/2015 16:35

I have no idea what you know and don't know, since you both used the victim's initials and indicated she "put him in jail" which is a load if rubbish.

timtam23 · 05/01/2015 16:35

I just read the full statement from Web Applications UK. They have a partnership with OAFC to run computer coding clubs for the children of Oldham!!

I really don't understand how they can think it's OK to continue this partnership if the club employs an unrepentant convicted rapist who is still on license.

They also said he'd served his time...(head...wall...bang...)

PetulaGordino · 05/01/2015 16:37

I can fully imagine that CE believes she consented because he cannot conceive otherwise

BetsyBoop · 05/01/2015 16:39

Oldham have now issued a statement, which doesn't actually say much of anything...

LineRunner · 05/01/2015 16:40

I am very unhappy about posters on here, who seem to be questioning the conviction, using the victim's initials.

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