to wonder about Mary and Joseph? [Thread title edited by MNHQ]

[Charingcrossbun]

If Mary and Joseph are married then isn't it odd that she is a virgin?
Am I being ignorant? Was it a shotgun post preggo wedding? Or are they not married and she is a single mum?
Not questioning the religious side (or trying to be offensive) just wondering about their relationship?

phaedra - no, sorry, I was asking about Islam, not Christianity, and thought she was too.

You see, all 'immaculate conception' means in Christianity is that Mary was conceived through a miraculous, non-sexual union. A virgin birth would, obviously, be an immaculate conception. It's not the immaculate conception, simply because the term is already in use.

It's nothing to do with confusing immaculate conception and virgin birth (though you are right many people do confuse them). It's to do with the fact that the character who is God in one religion is only a prophet in the other, and so we want to know how Islam characterises the lineage of Christ?

'You see, all 'immaculate conception' means in Christianity is that Mary was conceived through a miraculous, non-sexual union.

But..a Non sexual union would then imply a Virgin birth for mary?

The concept of original sin doesnt exist in Islam; as every child is born sinless; until a certain age of understanding; after which thier deeds are recorded as either Good or sinful.

The story goes that once Adam and Eve realised thier 'mistake' (rather than a sin) for falling for satans tricks... they repented profusely and were forgiven...(after they were sent to earth). And that was the end of that. And then came abel and cain.

There is something similiar to the concept of free of sin even in adulthood that indicates the holy saint like character; and Mary was considered one of them; free of sins due to her own dedication. and that was the main reason she was chosen so no one could question her character.. When it came to the virgin birth of Jesus.

But the virgin birth was not the only miracle; baby jesus in the arms of mary; speaking to defend his mother of the accusations by the local community ( the relevant verses are quoted at then of page 5)...was another miracle that Jesus is known for and a sign that he was a Prophet.

What's interesting is that, even without access to the prehistoric stuff, Genesis still gets the order of evolution.

What did Jesus die for? He died for our sins. Do you think Man has committed no sin since the Original one?

But..a Non sexual union would then imply a Virgin birth for mary?

Nope, a woman who is married and had several children could (in the context of the Bible) also have a child through non sexual means.

What's interesting is that, even without access to the prehistoric stuff, Genesis still gets the order of evolution.

That would be interesting if it was true, but it isn't.

Iggi999, Oh yes if they'd asked me back then I'd have come up with a different justification for sin, the crucifixion and so on. However Adam & Eve is what they went with. Millions have been taught that this was the reason and this has been confirmed by the prayers of millions.

If Adam & Eve are taken symbolically to mean all humans make choices that take them away from God (or even just that bring suffering upon themselves)

That would have been a good way to go, but going with it now undermines the other parts that say people can't be sinless. Not that it's difficult to be sinless, but that despite free will all men are guilty of sin because they inherit it.

What did Jesus die for? He died for our sins. Do you think Man has committed no sin since the Original one?

But remember how babies had to go to Limbo or Hell because they had original sin even though no chance to commit real ones yet? There was argument over whether god would forgive them, but not I think over their sinfulness. That was taken as settled.

When dh and I wanted to be married he was divorced and I was widowed. Because he is RC there were difficulties about marrying in Church unless his first marriage was annulled.
We married in a registry office then applied for an annulment. The priest said we should consider ourselves 'betrothed' until the annulment was granted when we would be free to marry in Church. This did indeed happen despite his having been married for 20 years and having several dc. Mary and Joseph were betrothed.

You see, all 'immaculate conception' means in Christianity is that Mary was conceived through a miraculous, non-sexual union

It means nothing of the sort. There's no suggestion Mary was conceived other than the normal way by sexual union. At the moment Mary was conceived by normal biological means, her soul was acted upon by God (kept "immaculate") at the time of her conception.

Oh and Iggi999 & Tanith. If you agree that Mary and Jesus were born without sin you'd have to agree that everyone else was born sinful. So Original Sin must still be the official position.

The immaculate conception is the belief Mary was born without original sun. It has nothing to do with virginity.

You are being offensive, stop pretending.

I am assuming you dissect the Koran ans Siking or any other religion like this, not clever.

It didn't happen. That's the truth.

Backonlybriefly - I do believe Mary and Jesus were born without sin. I also believe that you and I were born without sin... You are making assumptions about my stance based on very limited postings! (Back to place on couch now)

If Mary and Joseph are married then isn't it odd that she is a virgin? Am I being ignorant? Was it a shotgun post preggo wedding? Or are they not married and she is a single mum? Not questioning the religious side (or trying to be offensive) just wondering about their relationship

Mary was a virgin because she had not had sex with anyone. [Though I'm told the word in the original Hebrew simply means she was a 'young woman']. She became pregnant because it was the will of God.

Original sin is the inherent tendency to disobey/move away from God which all human beings possess. It began with Eve. Original sin is transmitted in the sex act that leads to conception. Therefore to be free from original sin, Jesus had to be born without the sex act taking place, an 'immaculate conception'.

Some Christians believe that Mary herself was the product of an immaculate conception. My speculation is that they need to believe this so that Mary is free from sin and unable to pass on original sin to Jesus.

Mary was betrothed to Joseph - their marriage was arranged - but she had not yet gone to live in his house and commence their sexual relationship, so she was probably very young, perhaps thirteen or fourteen, depending on the age of puberty.

Mary would have known that to be pregnant outside marriage would, at the very least, lead to her being cast out from society, and at worst, to her being stoned to death. Her act of submission to the will of God in agreeing to bear the child is therefore remarkable and demonstrates her faith and piety.

Joseph, to maintain his good standing in society, should have put the pregnant girl aside, but he was influenced by a dream containing a message from an angel and did not do so, showing his piety.

Mary, in this part of her story, is an outstanding example of a believer showing obedience to God. Joseph is an outstanding example of a believer showing obedience and of caring for the vulnerable.

Aspects of the story are included to convince different groups in near Eastern society 2000 years ago that Jesus was the Messiah. For example, the Magi are Zoroastrian priests, so including them in the story suggests that the author of Matthew wanted to convert Zoroastrians. It has something to do with Matthew' being based in Antioch. I think. Its such a long time since I went to university...

No doubt all the above has already been said on the thread, but having seen the title and the opening post, I needed to get it off my chest.

The story is all about the control o f women, men's ownership of women, women being taught you are good if you obey whether that be God or your father or your husband. It is a nasty set of principles based on life in the desert 2000 years ago when girls were engaged before puberty and in effect became property of men. It is not something morally good or worth retaining today.
(People need to look up "immaculate conception". It means Mary was supposedly born without original sin. Babies are supposedly born with original sin which they need to be baptised as early as possible for ideally within days in case they die before baptism - if that happens it could be hell or the now abolished Limbo. It is nothing to do with the separate issue of her supposedly conceiving whilst a virgin.)

Iggi999 maybe it was an unwarranted assumption that you believed in Original Sin, but it's reasonable for me to suppose that Christians in general do as they have said so for so long. I would have thought it was a core belief, but I suppose even those can change.

Original sin is transmitted in the sex act that leads to conception.

I don't think that can be quite right as that means that people who get pregnant using IVF are producing babies without sin. That will shake the universe as there was supposed to be only one such (Jesus) or two if you follow the Catholic god.

Mary and Joseph did the deed. Through the merits of Jesus Mary was preserved from original sin.

What concerns me is that the feast of the Immaculate Conception is on 8th December and 3 weeks later Jesus is born. Pretty short gestation period but the upside is that I can drink champagne at half past ten in the morning of the 25 December.

As a Catholic, my view is pretty much who cares?
We'll never know for sure and it's not particularly relevant. Not to me.
:)

The whole point of the virginal birth was to indicate that Jesus had a supernatural origin, the son of God, rather than of Man.

It has been exaggerated by tradition, including and quite a lot by the branch that includes the Catholic church.
And yes, there is quite a lot of too much veneration of Mary, but, on the other hand, it does give a role of relevance to the feminine. I agree that it is in a somewhat passive role, but then Jesus first miracle was at the orders of his mother (as a good son should be ) and in fact, Jesus did free up women a lot, breaking away from traditions like stoning.
Unfortunately, the Church(es) are by men and not by God...

Years ago there was an error on a GCSE or O level English paper. The passage written about referred to immaculate conception. The writer of the paper assumed that meant virgin birth which is utterly wrong. Catholics answering the paper all knew instead it meant Mary was born without original sin and was nothing to do with what sex she might or might not have had 12 - 14 years later. It caused a bit of trouble in terms of how fairly to mark that paper.

The veneration of Mary is not a bad thing when most religions go on and on about men and their supremacy and only let men be leaders (listen to Woman's hour today which has an interesting item on religions founded by women like 7th day Adventists whose health principles - no smoking, drinkingetc mean adherents live 10 years longer than most people). As most men (and indeed women) are pretty keen on their mothers the elevation of Mary in Catholicism in particular probably was a god thing for women although it did drive many men and women to want women to be either madonna virginal and obedient, the hand maid of the lord and her husband, doing exactly what she is told, or whore rather than the equal to men mixture women should be.

I certainly think women should be and many of us want to be on the throne, not the power behind it. Men can have the power to rock the cradle and be behind the throne if it is such a good role. I am happy to take the role of God.

There is the old feminist joke/truth that when the man gets to heaven and comes back people ask what is God like. She's black, he says.