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Original poster

to wonder about Mary and Joseph? [Thread title edited by MNHQ]

144 replies

Charingcrossbun · 23/12/2014 07:57

If Mary and Joseph are married then isn't it odd that she is a virgin?
Am I being ignorant? Was it a shotgun post preggo wedding? Or are they not married and she is a single mum?
Not questioning the religious side (or trying to be offensive) just wondering about their relationship?

OP posts:
Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:30

I find interesting the insistence in some denominations that she remained a virgin - a poster has said that she had other children (referred to as brothers in gospels, though i know some explain this as meaning cousins etc). Why is it so important to some to believe that she was a perpetual virgin - no biblical authority for that as far as i know (unless there's something in the apocrypha).

It's the Roman Catholics and Orthodox who believe that. Neither of them rely on scripture alone for their doctrines - they rely a lot on tradition (of which scripture is part). In the case of the latter I understand it's because they believe that it would be inconsistent for Mary to be God bearer and have a normal married life. I'm probably trivialising greatly though.

ScaryHairyFairy · 23/12/2014 08:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:32

Iggly

For someone who says we can't be sure what happened, you seem awfully sure. Has God been speaking to you again?

Fluffyears · 23/12/2014 08:32

When you were 'betrothed' back then you were considered married jusy without the formality that came later. Nowadays i suppose living together and being engaged is similar. The Islam story of the nativity is different and really interesting.

ProbYou · 23/12/2014 08:32

I am sure they had plenty of sex once Jesus was born via IVF type insemination.

They had children, there is reference to Jesus having Brothers and Sisters.

I have no idea why the Catholic church calls Mary ever virgin.

dangerrabbit · 23/12/2014 08:32

I believe that the word "virgin" in the original language the New Testament was written in (Greek?) also translated as "adolescent girl".

However, it was later interpreted as "Virgin" for political reasons by church leaders.

sassytheFIRST · 23/12/2014 08:33

Interesting that it is Joseph's genealogy that is detailed in the writings though, to prove he is a descendant of king David. Why would that matter if he was not the father of Jesus? (Or in the words of my friends 6yo when looking at a nativity set "that's Mary, shes Jesus' mum, that's Joseph, he Jesus' carer...")

Iggly · 23/12/2014 08:34

I said I reckon. The latter bit was tongue in cheek.

I didn't say it was true.

I think the bible is a collection of historical stories based on fact and mythology. I just don't believe in god. But I don't know I am correct, that is just my view.

LaurieFairyCake · 23/12/2014 08:34

The Catholic church don't believe Mary stayed a Virgin Confused

Well maybe there's a guy somewhere who does but not any Catholic I know.

What 'ever' Virgin means is don't disbelieve the fact (to Christians) that she was given a child by God.

woollyjumpers · 23/12/2014 08:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KatieKaye · 23/12/2014 08:36

Maiden/maid and virgin were synonymous at the time of the King James Version.

Think of Ophelias song in Hamlet: let in the maid that out a maid never departed more. In other words, she lost her virginity. And of course maidenhead is an old name for hymen.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:37

It is true that "virgin" once didn't mean "someone who hadn't had sex". However, even in Biblical times, it was expected that sex did not take place until marriage. Given that most women married, it sort of followed that a "virgin" would be a "virgin" in the modern sense.

Not a conspiracy by the mediaeval church.

adsy · 23/12/2014 08:38

you know full well what I mean scary

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:40

Laurie

It is one of those things that the RCC officially teaches but doesn't in fact believe like the teaching that contraception is wrong.

MadHairChristmasEveryone · 23/12/2014 08:42

Iggly, the NT as we know it is actually a remarkably accurate collection of documents to the original texts - the sheer number of incredibly early fragments we have testify to this in addition to the fact that what we read today is so close to what is in these early thousands of pieces - something unprecedented in antiquity. What was written on them was very accurate as well due to rigorous oral tradition - not talking here stories your gran told at bedtime, but great chunks of prose learned verbatim.

Can't go on too much as on phone but the whole virgin thing - yes, virgin meant unmarried girl, and Mary was unmarried. Never got why some were so hung up on her remaining a virgin either.

Op doesn't offend me as a christian - always interesting to talk about.

ProbYou · 23/12/2014 08:42

I now have pictures in my head of Joespeh/Jesus and Mohammed with a stiffy. They are looking worried and ashamed.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:44

Katiekaye

And of course maidenhead is an old name for hymen.

Which makes one wonder what Slough means.

adsy · 23/12/2014 08:45

Not being inflammatory though you are by calling me that revolting word.

Original poster
Charingcrossbun · 23/12/2014 08:45

Thanks ladies - my religious world religion lessons were ethics type things - what religions believe about - death/abortion/drugs etc not the details

So the answer (in so much as there is one with these things) is they were engaged, which makes sense.

OP posts:
DuchessofBuffonia · 23/12/2014 08:46

The reading we are told in Catholic mass:

Matthew 1:18-25

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit;

19 and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

20 But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;

21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

22 All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

23 "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife,

25 but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.'

So it quite clearly says that he did 'know her' (have sex with her) after Jesus was born.

ScaryHairyFairy · 23/12/2014 08:46

Yes I know what you mean, which is why I've asked you if you're meaning to be inflammatory. Because obviously, Muslims will also take offence at what you've written. So why write it? To stir up a little bit of shit for laughs? What a pathetic, illiterate thing to do.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:46

Given that it's at the back end of Maidenhead.

zippey · 23/12/2014 08:48

It's just a nice story, like lord of the rings or mog the cat. There isn't really a land of hobbits under a hill or a ring to rule them all.

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 23/12/2014 08:49

Just in case you didn't understand what adsy meant scary, I shall spell it out for you:

If someone started a thread entitled 'did Mohammed have erectile dysfunction' they would be told they were being offensive, it would just be inappropriate. But Christianity is fair game. But don't let the fact that you knew perfectly well what adsy meant stop you from grabbing the opportunity to call someone a cunt will you?

I have to say, although I was a bit Hmm at the thread title, I find the idea of who these people were and what actually happened back then with the origins of Christianity, against how the RC church manipulated stuff and changed everything, absolutely fascinating.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 08:50

re v 25: "The idiom in itself neither confirms nor denies the perpetual virginity of Mary".