to wonder about Mary and Joseph? [Thread title edited by MNHQ]

[Charingcrossbun]

If Mary and Joseph are married then isn't it odd that she is a virgin?
Am I being ignorant? Was it a shotgun post preggo wedding? Or are they not married and she is a single mum?
Not questioning the religious side (or trying to be offensive) just wondering about their relationship?

Oh stupid phone FFS. Historical

I'm happy with the discussion over Mary and Joseph. It's interesting. If be interested in explanation of Mohammed's views on the story of exist? I have no knowledge at all as to what Islam says about the story.

Small tweak of title would amend the bit where I clenched before reading the op.

Btw I get that in Islam he's not obviously the son of God!

I've googled it, apparently in the Qur'an (and I'm happy to be corrected on this) Mary was a virgin who gave birth through immaculate conception, but she went into the desert to birth the child, the angel Gabriel featured too, the key difference is where Christians believe he was the son of god, I think (and again, I'm only going of google here) Muslims believe he was just a

I find the interconnections fascinating, I really do.

Late back to it, but thanks very much for refs!

The doctrine of immaculate conception refers to Mary''s conception , not Jesus'.(Mary being conceived free from original sin) and is not the same as the virginal conception of Jesus.

phaedra - but she's talking about the Qur'an? Might it be different?

Wasn't it quite common for gods/demi gods/ prophets to have mothers who were virgins?

Wasn't Mithras born from a virgin? Well when he wasn't being born out of a rock.

As for Mohammed, well he married a 9 year old.

The origin of the Grail legends is actually pre-Christian. If I remember correctly, there is an Irish legend with the rather odd name of Phantom's Frenzy which relates how an Irish hero meets Lug (a Celtic god) and a woman called the Sovranty [sic] of Ireland who gives the hero meat and a a cup of beer. At a later point this and other stories spread to Wales and then to Brittany. Over time, so the theory goes, they got adapted to a Christian audience by turning the Irish hero into a mediaeval knight, and the meat and beer into a vessel containing a communion wafer. The vessel, in time, was said to be the cup used at the Last Supper. It is quite funny that a legend which was co-opted into Christianity has been used to argue sell lots of books at great profit to subvert Christian beliefs.

phaedra - but she's talking about the Qur'an? Might it be different?

No, she's muddling the doctrine of immaculate conception and virgin conception. "Immaculate conception" refers only to Mary's conception, which by God's grace was free of original sin.

I don't actually believe any of it but if it's going to be discussed should be clear that "immaculate conception" and "virgin birth" are not synonyms.

There are different interpretations of the Koran as to whether Mary was immaculately conceived but neither Islam nor Christianity hold that she gave birth through immaculate conception.

I never understand why they'd want to throw in the notion that Mary was conceived free from original sin. After all if it were that easy and no downside to it then why not make us all free from original sin?

It's a plot hole.

Back it's full of plot holes. Why have the tree with the knowledge of good and evil in the first place? Set up to fail isn't it.

Same with Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate- what if they had behaved differently? But they couldn't, could they?

Paradise Lost sets out the paradoxes beautifully

Re Mary's immaculate conception, it's always struck me as a re-writing of history.

Speaking of plot holes, d'you know one thing that has always struck me as dubious (well, since I had my own child, anyway):
They were in makeshift accommodation (fair enough, that's unfortunate) and they put the baby in a manger. A little detail, (and details should add plausibility, right?) but it just screams fiction to me. Fiction written by a man, who thinks that makeshift accommodation would involve a makeshift cradle. Once I had my own child, I realised that if you had your baby in a stable, you'd keep it next to your body.

TheEponymousGrub, good point. It's the little things isn't it.

Phaedra, I couldn't agree more. Judas and Pontius either lacked free will or they were heroes who saved the plan.

Adam & Eve were blamed for what they decided before they knew good from evil and we all have to suffer because of that?

God was surprised they had done it and wasted some time looking for them in the garden?

He also said they'd die if they ate it. The first lie?

Oh and now many Christians say they accept evolution, but in that case there was no Adam & Eve and therefore no original sin. There goes the whole point of the story.

I think it's widely known/believed that the Adam and Eve story came from the time of Exodus. People of the time seeking to understand their purpose on Earth. I think it is understandable that they may have considered humans came from an original two. They didn't have the same access to prehistoric stuff as we do now. Just my opinion though and others will think differently.

AFAIK Joseph is not mentioned in the Quran in relation to Mary. He is mentioned in a seperate chapter as one of the 12 sons of jacob and rachel ( 12 tribes of israel). Both jacob and joseph are believed to be prophets sent by God.

As for Mary ; there is a whole chapter in the quran dedicated to her and the miracle birth of jesus ( Isa) but no mention of joseph in that chapter.

Some verses quoted from the Quran mentioned below:

"Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them. Then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said, 'I seek refuge from you to God Most Gracious! Do not come near me, if you fear God!' He said, 'No, I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a holy son.' She said, 'How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?' He said, 'So (it will be). Your Lord says, 'That is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men, and a Mercy from Us. It is a matter (so) decreed'" (19:16-21, the Chapter of Mary)

Sorry its abit long..but it sums it up pretty well

The Birth of Jesus

“So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ‘I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten. [Mary was worried that people would think badly of her as she was not married.] Then (baby Jesus) called her from below her, saying, ‘Don’t be sad. Your Lord has provided a stream under you.’ Shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, and it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be happy. And if you see any human, then say, ‘Indeed I have vowed a fast to the Most Merciful so I will not speak to any human today.’ Then she carried him and brought him to her people. They said, ‘O Mary, indeed you have done a great evil.’ ‘O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a fornicator.’ So she pointed to him. They said, ‘How can we speak to a child in the cradle?’ (Jesus) said, ‘Indeed, I am a slave of God. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.[4] And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I remain alive. And (has made) me kind to my mother, and did not make me arrogant or miserable. And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised alive.’” (Quran 19:22-33)

Most Christians believe in evolution.
I doubt many Protestants believe in original sin, but in don't know the current Catholic or Orthodox stance.

Well I know religions change over the years and there are too many to keep up with, but if they don't believe in original sin then what do they claim Jesus died for?

*No, she's muddling the doctrine of immaculate conception and virgin conception. "Immaculate conception" refers only to Mary's conception, which by God's grace was free of original sin.

I don't actually believe any of it but if it's going to be discussed should be clear that "immaculate conception" and "virgin birth" are not synonyms.*

You're quite right, I got confused between the two.

BOB - original sin is a whole doctrine - you are born sinful as a consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve. I think you could certainly still imagine a situation where humanity needs "saving" without it going back to the original sin idea. If A&E are taken symbolically to mean all humans make choices that take them away from God (or even just that bring suffering upon themselves) then this could be the situation Jesus was sent into, to show humans a way to live without being alienated from God.

It says in the Bible that they were betrothed. And I'm a pagan!