Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to wonder about Mary and Joseph? [Thread title edited by MNHQ]

144 replies

Charingcrossbun · 23/12/2014 07:57

If Mary and Joseph are married then isn't it odd that she is a virgin?
Am I being ignorant? Was it a shotgun post preggo wedding? Or are they not married and she is a single mum?
Not questioning the religious side (or trying to be offensive) just wondering about their relationship?

OP posts:
adsy · 23/12/2014 08:54

Thank you helium I do indeed mean that Christianity is fair game and the equivalent said about an aspect of Islam would be pounced upon.
To be clear, I don't even consider myself a Christian ( or any other religion) just seems unfair that Christians can have the piss taken out of them but certain other religions are sacrosanct.
Have them all fair game or none of them.

ScaryHairyFairy · 23/12/2014 08:54

neverbuyheliumballoons I have also found the thread title inappropriate. I don't like any kind of religion being poked fun at. Which is why in asking adsy if throwing her Mohammad comment in there was the appropriate thing to do? When there's one religion already being made the butt of a joke on here, was it really necessary for her/him to put islam in there aswell?

Trapper · 23/12/2014 08:55

Lol @ Slough. I bet her Wycombes were a lot lower after all those kids ??

TSSDNCOP · 23/12/2014 08:57

Perhaps not Scary, but absolutely no need for you to call her a cunt.

adsy · 23/12/2014 08:58

I wasn't making Islam the butt of any jokes. I was saying no one would dare take the piss out of it. That's a big difference and really unnecessary and insulting to call me that. But hey ho, some people are just unpleasant.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 09:00

I find the idea of who these people were and what actually happened back then with the origins of Christianity, against how the RC church manipulated stuff and changed everything, absolutely fascinating.

Now I'm not Catholic, but I do groan when people say this. The Roman Catholic Church has never been anything like in full control of what Christians believed. Christianity itself has never been unified.

In the early years, there were Orthodox and Arian Christians who flat disagreed with each other. When what we now know as standard Christianity prevailed, the church was still organised very much on the local level, with the bishops being the only people who had much clout, and then only in their own areas.

In early mediaeval times, large parts of Europe, although Christian, had very very little to do with the Pope. A good example is the Celtic church in Scotland, Ireland and northern England: they considered themselves part of the church, but simply looked after themselves. While the popes did increase their powers over time, in 1054 the church split in two (Catholics and Orthodox) and any control the popes had over the east vanished. Even after then, the churches in places like France and England had their own distinctive practices and beliefs, as did local areas. After the Reformation, the Pope lost control of northern Europe too.

Finally in terms of doctrine, there was far more philosophical debate than people realise. It wasn't exactly like The Name of the Rose. At the local level, people mixed all sorts of local beliefs in with their Christianity. Many of these beliefs survived well into modern times.

ClashCityRocker · 23/12/2014 09:00

What's the Muslim version of the nativity then? I know the Qur'an featured Jesus, not as the son of God, but a prophet (I think).

The parallels between world religions are fascinating, not in the least for the historical documentation of earlier times.

Iggly · 23/12/2014 09:02

I'm talking about the whole bible not just the new testament. I think the bible is a fascinating document.

Neverbuyheliumbalonz · 23/12/2014 09:03

neverbuyheliumballoons I have also found the thread title inappropriate.

So why did you only reserve the nasty term 'cunt' for adsy then?

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 09:07

As an interesting aside, I read some years ago that the Arabic church was pretty uniformly suspicious of the divinity of Christ. When the bishops all got together at Chalcedon and declared that Christ was both fully human and fully divine, they'd had enough and sheered off. From a purely sociological perspective, Islam is a very interesting development from Christianity.

Mostlyjustaluker · 23/12/2014 09:08

At only 30 when he became a Rabbi is is likely that a Jewish man of that era would not have been married as men married older as they had to be able to financially support their family.

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 09:09

30 would have been pretty old for those times though?

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 23/12/2014 09:16

adsy
"To be clear, I don't even consider myself a Christian ( or any other religion) just seems unfair that Christians can have the piss taken out of them but certain other religions are sacrosanct."

As a Christian I don't mind if people take the piss. Quite a lot of it is quite unbelievable after all, but that's kind of the point. I wouldn't have much faith really if someone questioning aspects of it put me off. A lot of the time it is exactly the same questions I have had. A faith without doubt isn't much of a faith at all I reckon.

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 23/12/2014 09:24

I know lots of Catholics who believe Mary to be ever-virgin. Whilst I dislike the idea because of what it says about 'purity' (i.e. sex is dirty), I'm more bothered by the theology that Mary was sinless. People can go through life without sex but it is pretty fundamental that everyone does something wrong at some point in their lives. As a protestant I find the veneration of Mary by Catholics and Orthodox rather bemusing.

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/12/2014 09:27

I was saying no one would dare take the piss out of it

I will. Can't imagine why you think there's a difference.

Islam is another man-made religion. Allah is no more real than Daffy Duck. I don't know if Muhammad had good or bad intentions, but since he made it up we know that he was a liar.

Oh and I just got a pencil and drew a picture of Allah.

Do you posters who say "you wouldn't say that about xxxx" not read any other threads? Because the Muslims say "you wouldn't say that about Catholics".

BackOnlyBriefly · 23/12/2014 09:30

Don't the church consider the virgin birth to be a miracle and therefore proof that god is real?

whatsthatcomingoverthehill · 23/12/2014 09:40

Well 'the church' covers a wide spectrum of views for a start. But yes, in general we believe in the virgin birth which is by definition a miracle. I wouldn't exactly call it proof of God though, because it cannot be proved that it happened. Just as we cannot prove that Jesus turned water into wine, raising of Lazarus etc etc. That's where belief comes in.

Iggi999 · 23/12/2014 09:43

The Buddha was born in a similarly miraculous way to Jesus, and he could walk as soon as he was born.
The OT has other examples of God intervening in human fertility, usually giving a baby to an older woman though not through himself, so to speak

Toadinthehole · 23/12/2014 09:46

Don't the church consider the virgin birth to be a miracle and therefore proof that god is real?

No. For most of history, the existence of a divine being was taken for granted or, to put it another way, the sum needed no proof. Arguments were formulated in mediaeval times for the existence of God, but they were based on logic rather than empiricism. It wasn't until about 200 years ago that human knowledge was able to explain the world around us without a divine being as a necessary ingredient.

The significance of the virgin birth (as with any other miracle) is what it teaches about God, ie, God is willing to suspend the laws of nature to do this specific thing.

Buggered if I know what it means though. It's late and I'm tired.

BobbyBingoooo · 23/12/2014 10:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hiddenhome · 23/12/2014 10:01

Disgusting and offensive thread title.

It's well seen that Christianity is fair game Hmm

ClashCityRocker · 23/12/2014 10:05

I don't know, I'm nominally a Christian so don't feel bad questioning it. And in a sense, for even non-practising Christians their is a sense that it is 'theirs' in a way that other religions are not.

It's a bit like, I might moan about my family, but if anyone else (non-family) moans about my family, I will take umbrage.

Tanith · 23/12/2014 10:14

Not only did men tend to be older, the women were younger than is often portrayed.

Mary was probably about 14 years old. Not so hard to believe she was a virgin.

lemisscared · 23/12/2014 10:21

what a ridiculous OP and pretty offensive too.

AngieBolen · 23/12/2014 10:22

I'm probably the only Catholic in the world who doesn't believe in the virgin birth. Shock