To think that some women have an awful time on the postnatal ward

[elliejjtiny]

This isn't a slag off the midwives thread. In my case the midwives were perfectly lovely and kind, just very overworked.

My 2 experiences on the postnatal ward with DS4 (now 18m) and DS5 (now 6m) were horrible. I had caesareans both times and both babies were in NICU, although DS5 came and joined me on the ward for the last 3 days. Once my catheter was out I had to make my own breakfast, fetch other meals and drinks from the ward kitchen, take expressed milk down what felt like endless corridors to NICU every 4 hours and sterilize all the bottles, pump bits etc. I didn't have DH with me as he was looking after the DC's or any visitors who stayed more than 5 minutes. I could have really done with some tlc in my vulnerable and hormonal state. And some decent painkillers. I wasn't allowed morphine after the catheter came out because it made me wobbly, just paracetamol and ibubrofen. I take more than that for period pains.

But when I talk about it I get told that it didn't happen or that I'm being negative or exaggerating. It makes me feel like I'm going mad. So come and tell me your awful postnatal ward stories so that I know I'm not alone.

I'm not sure I know anyone with that attitude elephants.

Don't know anyone who votes based on best financial outcome to their own family circumstances? Or you don't know anyone who wouldn't gladly pay 10% more tax every year to have a bigger NHS?

Dreamingbohemian - I'd welcome the chance to prove your figures wrong, but I get what you say about derailing the thread. Another time mayhaps?

Post natal wards are horrendous. The reasons women suffer & midwives can't give adequate safe care is mainly down to management.

The delivery suite is always top priority & staff will always be pulled to work there. Postnatal care is not seen as a priority by management. It's just a conveyor belt. Once the baby is out, the jobs done, move on. Discharge the women home asap.

There is no excuse for bad attitudes or lack of care. But 12 + hour shifts don't help. A postnatal ward midwife may have 8 women & 8 babies, mainly high risk, otherwise they'd be at home. If a colleague gets pulled, they might get another 2 or 3 extra women & babies. There are endless IV antibiotics, endless blood transfusions, babies not feeding, babies jaundiced. Women in agony, women who speak no English. Dirty sheets, dirty toilets, awful food. No support staff. The list is endless. Where to turn, who to go to first. Imagine 12 hours of that 3 or 4 days a week. All while 'senior staff' are sat on their backsides in offices. Staffing is not an issue, recruitment is good, retention is not.

sure thing elephants -- duelling links at dawn!

Pippin do you know why postnatal is less of a priority? do lawsuits come into this at all, ie hospitals can get in a lot of trouble for problems in delivery but you never really hear about people suing over postnatal care

I'm also struck by how many people have mentioned dirty rooms and facilities -- that's not the midwives job anyway, right, but the cleaning staff? are there not enough of them either? it seems like just getting that bit right would make a big difference to people.

So sorry to hear of some of these awful experiences at what should be the best time of your life...some of them are truly horrific !
I believe it does have to do with cuts and staff shortages. I had my first baby in a stand along midwife led unit it was only a 4 room suite the room u laboured and delievered in you were in for the whole of the stay. It wasnt busy at all because they could only have 4 women and in fact i was the only one in when i gave birth and he was delievered by 2 lovely midwives and 2 nursing assistants. I had a nasty tear and was truly exhausted afterwards and one of the nurses bathed me because i didnt feel able to myself and she washed my hair...i was then sick everywhere and it wasnt a bother for them to clean me up. The 2nd night i was in ds just would not settle. Dh and me had no idea what to do (dh stayed throughout on a sofa bed) a wee nurse came in and took him for a few hours so we could both get sleep. Before we were discharged they showed us how to make and sterlize bottles we were showed how to bath him and after he was born we were shown how to dress him and change nappies which was all very helpful as first time parents. All meals were also brought to us and nothing was ever any hassle !

I just wish everyone could have this experience and i believe it was because there was plenty of staff and they werent over worked ! This was all under the nhs as well so not private care. Due to issues since having my first ds if i have another i probably will have to be under consultant led care which means going to the hospital and the reports ive heard of postnatal care and even care during delivery it frankly terrifies me to even have another baby ! X

The problem is that in normal life I'm a feisty old bird. Well known for it in fact.
And yet after I've given birth I'm strangely vulnerable and feeble.
I have sat in shocked silence as a so called professional spoke to me like I was incapable or fobbed me off yet again, or made me wait hours for some pain medication.
Most of us are like this and that's why nothing will ever change, or will get worse.
I was a nurse too and my mum and sister. It's pretty well known that some midwives think they are a law unto themselves.

I can understand staff getting stressed if they are stretched so much BUT that in no way, shape or form entitle them to take away what should be the best moments of the new mothers life!

It truly ruined that moment for me and I'll NEVER forget it.

Being totally cold and awful to a new mother is truly shocking!

I wish I could go back in time, I certainly would be complaining while I was in there! and I would have taken my HV advice and made a formal complaint!

OP - thank you for starting this thread. It makes for very upsetting reading. The birth of my DC earlier this year was the worst experience of my life and made ten times worse by the appalling standard of postnatal 'care' I had to endure afterwards. It has affected me greatly. I still think about it a lot almost one year on. It keeps me awake in the early hours. I am going to complain and am currently mustering the energy and fight to do so - not easy, especially after the hospital have given me the runaround trying to get hold of my notes.

I don't want to go into all the ghastly details but an example of how terrible my experience was is that the nurse-midwife who discharged me insisted that I weed the required amount of urine before she would let me go home despite the fact I still had a catheter and would leave hospital with it (due to complications during the delivery). When I questioned this through the HCAs (the only ones who would answer the buzzer) she insisted I do so before I left because it was hospital policy. By this stage I was so utterly desperate to leave I drank 3-4 jugs of water so I managed to wee the correct amount. The whole point of retaining the catheter was to keep my bladder empty so it could rest and heal - it must have been completely overloaded

I am so angry and am struggling to know what to do with my anger. This is irrational but I feel angry towards myself for allowing myself to be treated with such contempt. I feel angry that I was unable to fight my own corner. I run over in my head what I could have said or done differently which could have ensured I was treated with respect. I know in reality I couldn't have changed a thing but it doesn't stop me running through these thoughts over and over.

I believe that the postnatal care in this country needs a complete overhaul. This is not just about lack of staff and resources. I don't think midwives are best placed to look after women who have had complicated or assisted births and it seemed to me that the majority of midwives I encountered on the postnatal ward didn't want to. They're didn't deal well with anything that was less than straightforward. It's a shame on the NHS, a shame on this country.

I went straight to bottle feeding after the first day because of how I was treated with dd3. I had a section and was in terrible pain, expected to just get on with it, dropped my breakfast tray on the floor because of the pain I was in. I was told to get a grip, stop being melodramatic and just get on with it. I had no support with regard to breastfeeding even though I had never successfully breast fed my girls anyway. Hated every minute of hospital and I've given birth 4 times

My DH certainly stuck up for me whilst he was there, sadly the worst things happened to me during non visiting times. He was absolutely heartbroken when he came in and saw me the next day and told them we were leaning as soon as the baby was checked.

I did start a pals complaint but ended up leaving the borough before they fully responded. Moving house, Pnd fug and non sleeping baby meant I just didn't have the heart to follow it up.

Can't change what happened to me but I dread to think of how's my others have suffered the same fate.

It really stands out that many posters on this thread gave birth at St Thomas's or other London hospitals.

yanbu

after my first dc it was awful

second and third not so bad as i knew what to expect and could basically look after myself including having to tell them what pain relief i had already had and what i needed

Interesting what a previous poster said about Mumsnet not being interested in campaigning about this matter. I remember seeing this only a few weeks after my horrific experience and not seeing the joke at all. I thought it was very bad taste. Still do, actually.

My son went back in age 9 days. It was post natal ward. We were in single room as he couldnt mix with newborns. He was on a drip etc and couldnt leave cot. To eat breakfast you had to go to a room. I couldnt leave him. I didnt get any food for a week! DH brought me food but if I didnt have him I would have starved. Their response was that he would be ok alone for short while- I think not- there was no security.

I don't know anyone who would subscribe to this viewpoint elephants, from your post above: They want the services, believe they have a God given right to them, but they are unwilling to pay for it.

Seriously. You genuinely don't know anyone who believes they have a right to free healthcare of a standard and efficiency they select? Most of the posts on this thread are from people who have received appalling care and believe (quite rightly. I must add) that they are entitled to better, more diligent, more compassionate care.

So that only leaves the intent to pay for it. Every one of us has the opportunity to fly abroad and pay for private health care. Many of us don't have the money though, and many more don't believe it is worth spending the money on. But how many of us are actually willing to pay for the services we are asking for? Sure we pay a little National Insurance, but the majority of us never pay enough into the system to cover what we take out.

So how many are willing to pay more? How many campaign to have taxes increased? How many send a donation for an extra £10K to their local NHS? Maybe some do, but I bet most people think they are entitled because they paid tax, don't want to pay more tax, and don't care that they take more from the system than they put in.

Or is your contention that most people don't even think about it?

Don't get me wrong, there are serious problems. I've experienced them myself. But you cannot magic up money from thin air. Someone has to pay the bill. You can spend all the money you want and send the bill to your children, but what sort of adult would that make you? Or you can pick up the tab yourself and pay more, but no-one ever chooses that option. That only leaves getting what you paid for, which is exactly what we have in today's NHS.

I have birth in derby the first time.
It's not just London.

Cheshire here.

Dirty hospital rooms is a hard one. Can't go there. Where is a MWs care or compassion that she would let a mother be in a room that was filthy? Why do MWs generally not give a F about cleanliness, as, "It's not my job", and yet expect us to believe they 'care' and 'try to do a good job'?

I have actually left jobs because my employer expected me to abuse customers and lie to them. Where are these MWs morals that they continue to draw pay and work in institutions that do not clean or care for the rooms our babies are born into?

Oh, well, we're so stretched. We're understaffed. It's not my fault, it's someone else's fault. Honest. Of course I won't do anything about it. I need the money.

How much money is worth turning a blind eye to the abuse of women in labour wards? £28K a year? £35K? How much money makes it alright to leave women to suffer?

I was given water covered in another woman's blood.

Okay - some suggestions that wouldn't cost anything/much:

1. A laminated sheet in every bay/room explaining WHERE stuff is (sheets, blankets, spare bog roll etc), WHEN things are (rounds, meals, bf support visits etc) and HOW things work (when to use the buzzer, that you have to change your own sheets/cot sheets, that you can bring in your own formula rather than bothering MWs for it every time etc). This would a) cut down the work of having to answer questions over and over and show/do less essential tasks b) save women not asking/making do, which can be distressing, and c) make women feel they have some control over their experience.

1. DH/DP/birth partner allowed to stay as long as the new mother and baby do. No 'visiting hours', no 'go away during lunch', just a sofa bed, couch, chair or mattress for them to sleep in with you if you want. This would a) massively reduce the burden on MWs having to lift babies for women who can't get out of bed etc b) support and comfort scared, tired, hurt women and c) allow partners/gps/birth partners to be engaged with their DC/DGC/friend's DC etc, and really bond in the first few days.

Okay, there's a possible capital outlay here in terms of beds/sofas/mattresses, and possibly fewer spaces on each PN ward, so that's a bigger cost, but I think it's essential. More modern hospitals are all going that way.

1. Feedback forms, which are issued to each woman, listing the mws who cared for her by name. Presumably this info is recorded, so generating a form that allows naming and shaming/praising would be easy. I remember only two names from the week I was in - both lovely (obstetric, not PN) mws. I don't recall any names of the cunting bitches who bullied me in PN.

Re: taxes - I lived in Denmark for a year. You pay 60% flat rate tax, but it includes council tax and a lot more provision than in the UK. In Denmark, after the birth of your first child, you stay in a 'birth hotel' once (medically) safely discharged, and have up to three (five?) nights, with mws, hcas and nursery nurses on hand to help you get used to it, let you sleep etc. I may have garbled the details (convo over beers in Danish...) but I would pay 60% tax for that. I did - only I didn't give birth there! A lot of what we have in PN wards, they do in these hotels - there's medical care on standby if needed, so it's a useful halfway measure.

For lower rate taxpayers, 60% tax is absurdly high, but for higher rate payers, it's a small jump, and for a (lucky?) few, it's actually net lower payment in tax.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I do agree, you get what you pay for. You want a good healthcare, infrastructure and welfare state? That costs a lot. A LOT.

Re: public naming and shaming - if my complaint isn't upheld satisfactorily, that's what I will be doing. The hospital knows this. I don't want money, I don't want to up their insurance premiums by suing, but by fuck I will get them to apologise and improve, or I will eat my hat. I finally (11.5months later) feel strong enough to do something about this.
Since I have no option but hospital for any future DC, (huge PPH, so no chance of MLU or home birth), I am hugely invested in this, and frankly, I'm an argumentative, stroppy cow.

Sorry. This is a hard thread to follow. Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off here. I really need to stop following this thread.

Problem with partners staying over is discomfort of other won, and the inevitable raise in 'things going missing' from other people's lockers and handbags during the night. We can pretend it doesn't happen, but people steal from women in labour wards. Not letting partners in outside of set hours cuts down on those thefts considerably.

I know your DHs don't do that sort of thing, and my DH doesn't do it either. I suspect those DPs that do don't have partners on MN, but I know it happens, and I can't believe it doesn't get covered up by the MWs.

I'm not surprised St Thomas's is coming up again and again, there are some deeply unpleasant people working in maternity in that hospital. There was so much contempt for pregnant women and new mothers, I've seen more compassionate care bestowed on farm animals giving birth in fields. To be fair there were one or two lovely staff but they were way in the minority.

It took me a long time to make a complaint but it was taken seriously, I was given access to people high up in the hospital hierarchy and a few of the staff I complained about were given extra training. Sadly a very rude and incompetent secretary blew the whole good thing away at the last minute but the complaint was a vital step for me to get over the whole experience.

There have been a few threads on here about partners staying on the wards and they are always very split. Actually I think most women are against because you see how people behave during the day, often badly, you don't want all that at night too. And many women who already have DC have their partners at home with them, so they can't get their own help but have to put up with all the extra people.

I think as long as there are wards you can't have partners stay. What you need ideally is more private rooms or at least 2 person rooms. I know the question is where does the money come from but -- you do have all these midwife units now that are all private rooms where partners can stay the whole time. It seems a bit weird to me that these are reserved for women with very few problems, while the women with the most problems (eg post op) who most need a partner to stay and help are stuck on the awful wards. Again, it's almost like you're being punished for having a non-natural birth.