To think that some women have an awful time on the postnatal ward

[elliejjtiny]

This isn't a slag off the midwives thread. In my case the midwives were perfectly lovely and kind, just very overworked.

My 2 experiences on the postnatal ward with DS4 (now 18m) and DS5 (now 6m) were horrible. I had caesareans both times and both babies were in NICU, although DS5 came and joined me on the ward for the last 3 days. Once my catheter was out I had to make my own breakfast, fetch other meals and drinks from the ward kitchen, take expressed milk down what felt like endless corridors to NICU every 4 hours and sterilize all the bottles, pump bits etc. I didn't have DH with me as he was looking after the DC's or any visitors who stayed more than 5 minutes. I could have really done with some tlc in my vulnerable and hormonal state. And some decent painkillers. I wasn't allowed morphine after the catheter came out because it made me wobbly, just paracetamol and ibubrofen. I take more than that for period pains.

But when I talk about it I get told that it didn't happen or that I'm being negative or exaggerating. It makes me feel like I'm going mad. So come and tell me your awful postnatal ward stories so that I know I'm not alone.

So what, women should just suffer, elephant? That's too defeatist.

No, but complaining serves no purpose unless you are willing to make it personal, public, and name and shame specific midwives in the papers and on the TV. If a bad MW had to defend herself publicly and sue you for defamation of character, because you told the world she was a cunt, then maybe over time MWs would learn to treat people like human beings.

Alternatively, allocate a single midwife to each patient, and force that MW to stay with the same patients all the way through their care, in all circumstances. Stop chopping and changing. Then get the patients to fill in score cards at the end of their stay, and if a MW gets say three 'very poor' in a week, or ten in a month, discipline her, and sack her for repeated failures.

You see we live in a world now where absolutely no one can ever be sacked or disciplined for being shit at their job. No one gives a F if your MW is shit. Only you, and only for as long as you're in there, and you'll get over it.

Until we get away from this nanny state where everyone is entitled to job security and protection against 'unfair treatment', we will inevitably end up with the worst of employees gravitating to the least effective institutions.

So you have shit teachers, shit medical staff, AHs in the DSS, etc. none of whom would ever be able to exist in the private sector.

Bottom line is we get what we pay for.

A midwife on this thread has explained she sees twice as many patients as she used to and can't give them enough time. So it follows that, yes, more staffing would help. And obviously, more training to get rid of terrible attitudes.

You can have twice as many MWs with twice the training, but are you willing to pay for it? You personally? Are you willing to lose an extra 9.8% on your family income to improve the NHS? Most people are not. They think it should all come from the magic money tree.

That means more funding, and the question of where that comes from is a political one. That doesn't mean it's not possible, you just have to do what any interest group does and force the politicians to get off their asses. Public shaming of hospitals might help too.

A good side step. Yes, magic money tree money works every time. I have never seen anyone admit that they are willing to cut spending and increase taxes to solve a problem.

There is already talk of using bank fines to pay for NHS expansion, it doesn't have to be ordinary taxpayers that pay more.

Companies don't pay tax or pay fines, people do. Taking money from a company only harms people. But sure, I'd be happy for all those muppets who are saving for retirement to take a haircut on their pension pots, to see high street bank staff cut further, and to clip the dividends of shareholders. But I'd be willing to bet if you punish the banks, the person who gets hurt is the useless cashiers in the high street banks, and the lowly middle class pension saver who has been saving for decades, and now has 10% wiped off his nest egg.

This is why I'm so angry that MN refuses to campaign on this issue. Mothers are not an organised group, we need someone to lobby for us.

Why do you need someone to lobby FOR you? Why don't you lobby for us? You see, I do not believe the solution can be found without destroying the NHS. It is a monopoly, and like all monopolies, it produces a very poor product at a very high cost, and everyone employed by the NHS has a vested interest in keeping the monopoly going.

For all those who struggled - did your husbands/partners do anything? I saw some mention of DH's getting on the case and in my situation it was all that stopped this horrible MW from leaving me alone was the bollocking my DH gave her. Partners/whoever is supporting the new mother need to feel able to intervene. I am pretty sure my DM and MIL would also have said something. Easier perhaps when it is the father but any advocate for the mother would be better than nothing?

But millions of women give birth every year without dying

Not sure what dying has to do with the discussion but even if it did, let's not forget how vulnerable tens of thousands of women are immediately after birth and to struggle with sub-standard care actually does mean a difference between life and death. It doesn't make it any more acceptable just because some women have no problem. And mental health concerns after birth and poor treatment is a whole thread on its own.

It doesn't even need to be midwives. - just health care assistants - after cs or a traumatic birth the mother really should be cared for as a postoperative patient would be elsewhere IMO

Livingzuid My partner did nothing
He enabled them to treat me as badly as they did by pinning me down to the bed for them.

We're separated now due to other reasons, but his treatment of me during our daughters birth certainly contributed. He disregarded everything I'd said to him and just did everything they told him to. I felt like I was a piece of meat, just a vessel carrying his baby- not of any importance whatsoever.

You can't train people to be kind and compassionate. It's either in them or it isn't

The NHS will train itself into oblivion one of these days. When the hell will they ever learn? They are selecting the wrong people. Perhaps there is no compassion in anyone anymore. Society is changing. These professions are no longer vocations, they're an opportunity to laud it over and bully helpless people.

If the only solution is more money, then as a society we need to start paying for the services we use. So few of us are willing to pay for what we take. We all believe we are entitled to everything for free. No system can run when the majority of people never put in what they take out.

The more you take and the less you put in, the less there is to go round, and one day the bowl is going to be empty. I am surprised this house of cards has stayed up as long as it has.

We could begin by reducing care for self inflicted injuries. Alcohol, drug and cigarette abuse, obesity, etc. if they diverted resources from these groups to maternity, you'd effectively be promoting those who are bringing life into the world, and deterring those who are trying to kill themselves.

JadedAngel how many times do you see on the TV or read in the papers details of abusive individuals in care homes? It's now a weekly occurrence. These people are named, shamed, sometimes jailed and certainly prevented from every caring for the elderly again.

Why doesn't this happen with midwives? You never hear anything about this section of the 'care' industry. Sometimes the odd rogue nurse is in the papers, but very rarely a midwife. It seems that this ill treatment, abuse and neglect just isn't on the radar.

sorry elephant I still think you're being defeatist rather than pragmatic

I don't believe in any magic money tree The banks are being fined anyway, I'm not talking about taxing them to pay for health, it's a question of where those fines are going to be allocated. George Osborne has already said he wants to put it toward the NHS. So if we had an effective interest group, they could start lobbying for some of that money to be dedicated to better postnatal care.

It's not effective for every woman to lobby for herself. That's not how politics works. The people who are doing well in society are the people who are organised, have powerful groups with influence, who can get their message to the right people.

You can change policy and practice without adding taxes, you can reallocate from one place to another. I'm not some idiot thinking money fairies will come along and solve everything. But the government spends lots of money on stuff that is way less important than women being victimised in hospital and there's no reason we shouldn't lobby for change. Talking about raising taxes is just scaremongering, a way to shut people up.

You could regard having a baby as self-inflicted as well, tbh elephantspoo. And let's not forget any form of sexually transmitted infection, including oral and throat cancer from HPV - no more treatment for those. And perhaps obese people who became obese in childhood could sue their parents to cover the cost? I'm sure that would work well and increase the amount of compassion in society.

Well most midwives are perfectly nice but one of the ones I had when I had DS2 at Colchester General was absolutely vile. I was chatting to a friend years later, who I didn't know at the time of DSs birth and she mentioned a "vile and nasty" midwife she'd had and lo and behold it was the same one.

I don't hold grudges as a rule but this woman was so horrible at a time when I was at my most scared and vulnerable that if I think about it for too long, even 11 years later it still makes me cry.

Cow. Wouldn't piss on her if she were on fire.

The right to video a Policeman doing his job as a public servant has been codified in law. I bet there isn't a MW or a doctor who would be willing to work regularly if he/she knew his/her interactions were recorded. They'll come up with every excuse under the sun, but when it comes down to it, they want it to be your word against their's, an institution notorious for lies and cover ups, and no evidence recorded at the time.

I don't work in MW care, but I would have no qualms at all about my working life being subject to the possibility of recording and videoing. I have nothing to hide in the decisions I make. I doubt a MW would be willing to say the same thing.

Direct Entry - no nursing experience other than placement

Perhaps instead of having the cameras in a delivery ward such as 'One Born Every Minute' they should place the cameras in the PN Ward. Would certainly open a few eyes.

But elephants, why do you say that people aren't willing to pay more for better care?

Oh, I don't know. The fact that no government ever has been put into office on the back of a promise to raise taxes. People are inherently greedy. It is a basic human condition. They always vote for the person who promises to cut their expenses the most, provided they believe his bribe more sincerely than his competitors.

But the bottom line is, you cannot run any system based on everyone believing they are entitled to a free ride, by virtue of buying a nominal ticket at the start. In my entire life time, I will not pay more in that I take out, and neither will the overwhelming majority of people. They want the services, believe they have a God given right to them, but they are unwilling to pay for it.

The welfare system has only been around for 80 years. It is an experiment in collectivism. It's failure is a mathematical certainty. The only unknown is when. So we make the most of it while we have it. Our children, or possibly our grand children will not be so lucky as we. They will bear the burden of our overspend, and have to pick up the tab for their own private birth experience, but at least they'll likely be assured better staff, except maybe unprepared to pay for private health care.

I suspect our system will revert to basic care only on the NHS, with an overwhelmingly large move to private health care, and a chasm between those who have, and those who have not.

I had a straight-forward birth with dd (water birth even) and no problem breast-feeding either. (I know I was pretty fortunate)
But I still wouldn't rate my 30 or so hours on the post-natal ward, where I found there was extremely minimal support.
I was even more fortunate with dc2 and was able to go home straight from labour room - which I would definitely recommend if at all possible

I can't work out if elephants is being serious or not? I haven't read the whole thread but am bemused to see so much negativity towards a whole profession because of some bad people in it.

Personal experience. I thought it was unusual, but this thread highlights that it is all too common.

There are some truly awful midwives out there but there are some who are amazing and go above and beyond what is expected of them.

I'm sure the are good teachers and awful teachers, and while a good teacher is a positive influence on your child's development, an awful teacher can destroy a child's life. Why not make MWs wear body cams? The technology is cheap as chips. I'm sure if they can afford to pay £900 to change a lightbulb, they can equip MWs with body cams. But then I wouldn't be surprised if when an accusation were made, the cameras wouldn't have been working that day. Bottom line is, there is too much abuse, and the only people who should be accountable are the MWs.

I have seen plenty of stories in the paper about midwives being struck off (quite rightly so it would appear from what is reported)

Struck off? Not prosecuted in any way? Not fined or sued? Not blacklisted? So basically no punishment what so ever, now go into child care and torment and abuse children in private.

Sorry to be cynical. This is a raw subject for me, peeps.

The government has more sources of income than personal taxes -- VAT, corporate taxes, alcohol and tobacco taxes, etc. You don't need every person to have a balance between what they put in and put out. Anyway the average person in the UK puts in more than they get. It just doesn't seem like it because of tabloid BS.

Anyway I don't want to derail a support thread with politics, sorry about that. It just makes me so angry to see what women go through and I wish there was something we could do.