To be annoyed paying childminder over Christmas?

[oinkyoink]

We have had a childminder (it's a mum in her 60s and 30ish year old daughter who work together) for the two kids since September. She collects my son at 11.30 from nursery and my daughter at 3 from school. She doesn't provide any food which is fine... She's not exactly a quality childminder or one that you rave about and say things like she's worth her weight in gold etc. I don't mean it in a nasty way, I am just aware that she never takes my son out and puts the TV a lot! When I first met the two of them I said I was interested in term time only. The mum had popped out for a second and the daughter said yes that is absolutely fine. When the mum came back I mentioned it again and she said oh no that's not possible at all, we are a business and we want 100% pay all year round whatever the issue. She gets 4 weeks holiday included. I was taken aback as the daughter had just said term time only was fine... Anyway because we had no other minders who could do what we needed we went with them. Now it's come to Xmas and we are having two weeks off and they are having 1.5 weeks off. I have to pay them £240 per week for the two weeks we are away and it's really irritating me. A nanny would cost me a bit more but we would get such better value out of her (doing cooking kids laundry etc) so what do I do? Is it normal a minder charges so much?

There have been a couple of incidences too. My son told me they went to a cafe one day, he asked her for a drink and a muffin and she said no no yet she sat there and had a coffee. I brought this up with her and she was highly embarrassed and the next day she had him in a cafe sending me photos of him with a big muffin etc etc (too late- my son already got the idea what he means to her) he asks her to play with play doh or paint and she says no they can't as one of her nieces has taken the paint (white lies) or play doh. It's not acceptable. It's very clear they are in the business just for the money. I didn't sign the contract she have me at the start, it's still lying on the microwave... I think if I were really happy with them id pay however they really aren't amazing in any way and the little incidences have really bugged me. Thoughts appreciated...

I'll try to explain again.....

In order to be transparent, they could give the annual or monthly cost (including "holiday pay") divided by the hours of childcare that would be available for that cost. This would give the true cost of childcare per hour during the daytime and would be more transparent. It wouldn't matter if arrangement changed and extra days were added as the cost would/should still be the same per hour! Unsocial hour and overnight rates would be stated separately.

And no I don't think childminders "deserve" to be paid if they are not available to provide a service.

A nursery charges at holidays etc.

I don't know any nurseries, after school clubs or any business that charge when closed and not providing a service...

Round our way you pay for nursery fees even when they're closed e.g. bank hols hence I don't work Mondays.

We are term time only which makes a difference but we have a minimum number of weeks contract then add days on as needed. We pay half pay for their holiday of 4 weeks (fair enough they need holiday pay) and at least two of those weeks fall in school hols so doesn't really affect us.

Despite all of what you've said about holiday pay etc really they aren't worth what you're paying them when they ARE looking after your children. Get rid so you can be happy that your kids are happy.

I have 2 childminders working together by the way not nursery.

they could give the annual or monthly cost (including "holiday pay") divided by the hours of childcare that would be available for that cost.

Or anyone who wanted the rate worked out like that could either do it themselves or i dunno, ask for it that way?

Unsocial hour and overnight rates would be stated separately.

why is it ok for those rates tl be stated separately but not the holiday rate?

And no I don't think childminders "deserve" to be paid if they are not available to provide a service.

So dont use one that states their holiday rate on the contract then. use one that doesnt charge separately but raises their hourly rate to include holiday pay because either way you are paying for them

Some of us happen to think CMers are entitled to holidays and think it is beneficial for them to be able to afford to take them.

I don't know any nurseries, after school clubs or any business that charge when closed and not providing a service

Both the nurseries i used charged for bank holidays despite being closed.

And as i told you before, several times, ALL SE people charge for holidays.

I know the main issue here is with the level of care your child is receiving and I think I'd be concerned and would definitely look to move your DC ...
However a friend of mine had a run in with her cm over holidays...she and another parent moved their DCs - and the CM changed her policy with the two parents left...
Her cm charged 50% rate when she was on holiday (6 weeks a year) and 100% if you took your child out on holiday (which is kind of fair)
However she usually took her holidays outside term time - when parents of school age children were paying a full day rate anyway - not just for after school care. So 50% of more than double the term time rate...
But worse she never told the parents in advance when she was taking her 2 weeks summer holiday ...at least not until after the parents had told her when they were going. So my friend usually went away for the first 3 weeks of the school holidays...the childminder for the next two weeks. So CM looked after her DC for 1 week full time over the 6 weeks - and my friend paid 4 weeks 100% full time rate and 2 weeks 50%....
Came to a head the year my friend decided to match 2 weeks of her holiday to the CM's 2 weeks ..after much standing off etc including the CM saying she was fitting her holiday in with her other mindee's holidays too - friend found out she wasn't...two other parents (3 dcs with CM) were also away the first two weeks (when it is cheapest to go anywhere here anyway)...and this had gone on for years...
We also have two weeks half term in Oct - the CM took a week and had DCs for a week -but again chose her holiday week depending on the most number of children away on the other week ...

Or anyone who wanted the rate worked out like that could either do it themselves or i dunno, ask for it that way?

Banks and utility companies said the same thing about their charging systems. In reality they only did it because they knew that some people who be fooled into thinking they were cheaper than they actually are though.

You are not providing a service for the holiday pay so it should be included in the total cost to the client divided by the number of daytime hours available.

So don't use one that states their holiday rate on the contract then. use one that doesnt charge separately but raises their hourly rate to include holiday pay because either way you are paying for them

Yes that is what I am saying you should do. Raise the hourly rate rather than charging for no service. i.e. be more transparent about charges as other self employed people are.

Both the nurseries i used charged for bank holidays despite being closed.

I used four several years ago and none of them did that. After school clubs don't either. If nurseries do that now it is perhaps because some childminders do it. Very unfair to those who work use them on Mondays.

And as i told you before, several times, ALL SE people charge for holidays.

That is rubbish. I don't charge my clients "holiday rates". I only charge them for the time that I actually work for them. I think they would be seriously unimpressed if I added a holiday charge to the contract.

You are not providing a service for the holiday pay

Which is why it is called holiday pay and not normal pay. It is very clear what you are paying for.

Yes that is what I am saying you should do. Raise the hourly rate rather than charging for no service. i.e. be more transparent about charges as other self employed people are.

I shouldnt do anything just to save you crunching a few numbers. Mainly because i am not a CMer. Secondly, it isnt charging for no service. It is the holiday rate. Thirdly- you cant get any more transparent than having a specified section in the contract that states te charge and what it is for.

That is rubbish. I don't charge my clients "holiday rates". I only charge them for the time that I actually work for them. I think they would be seriously unimpressed if I added a holiday charge to the contract.

So when you work out your rate for a job you work it out based on all your overheads, your time, your materials, fuel, your profit etc but you dont plan to take any holidays during the year? Really? You must be exhausted. And a bit silly.

Or perhaps you fund your holidays out of some lottery win or an inheritance? If so fair enough- your clients are lucky you can do that.

WhyYouGottaBeSoRude What are you talking about? I fund my holidays from the pay I received for the hours I work like every other self employed person apart from childminders it seems.

Yes so you calculate your rate to include holiday pay.

Where are you that nurseries don't charge for holidays? Round South they ALL do. Building etc costs are 365 days.

Still unclear on cms.

*Secondly, it isnt charging for no service. It is the holiday rate. Thirdly- you cant get any more transparent than having a specified section in the contract that states te charge and what it is for.

It is charging for no service as if you are on holiday you are not available to provide your clients with a service.

Of course it can get more transparent. Rather than just stating in the contract that you will be charging for periods where no service is available, you can also discuss this with clients when they initial approach you about childcare as it isn't something people expect to pay for. You can also provide details on the true cost of the actual childcare as I have previously stated (i.e. total daytime cost/childcare hours available).

Secondly, it isnt charging for no service. It is the holiday rate. Thirdly- you cant get any more transparent than having a specified section in the contract that states te charge and what it is for.

It is charging for no service as if you are on holiday you are not available to provide your clients with a service.

Of course it can get more transparent. Rather than just stating in the contract that you will be charging for periods where no service is available, you can also discuss this with clients when they initial approach you about childcare as it isn't something people expect to pay for. You can also provide details on the true cost of the actual childcare as I have previously stated (i.e. total daytime cost/childcare hours available).

Where are you that nurseries don't charge for holidays? Round South they ALL do. Building etc costs are 365 days.

Seriously? So if a nursery charges £50 a day, the cost per year for a full time place is £18,250?

I've read the first 2 pages and last page of this thread.

I think there are 2 issues here. One is that you are not happy with the childminder. You need to either raise the issues with her and get it sorted out, or you need to leave and get another.

A separate issue is the fee you pay. If it was agreed that you would pay all the time, then you need to pay for Christmas. You might not like the idea of paying when not using the service, but if that was made clear to you when you started, then you need to pay this money as you owe it to them.

I think you are confusing the 2 issues. You are not particularly pleased with the service and you don't feel keen to pay over Christmas and because you don't like the service and it is time to pay for a period you are not there, you feel more aggrieved about the service being provided. However, remember that you need to pay and that it is not dependent on them providing a service you love.....if you have issues about the service, that needs bringing up, but is a SEPARATE issue from the quality of care. Nylon cannot and should not withold money which you have agreed to pay.

The agreement is between you and the childminder. Whilst there are usual childminder contracts and usual patterns for paying/not paying in holidays, each is individual and an agreement between the parents and childminder. No parent has to choose a childminder who offers terms they don't like and no childminder has to take a child when the parents don't agree to the terms. You and the childminder reached an agreement, or otherwise your child wouldn't be there. Now you owe them the money until the contract is terminated, following whatever notice periods are part of it. Give notice if you want to,mbut you will owe them for this holiday period and it would be unreasonable not to pay.

you can also discuss this with clients when they initial approach you about childcare as it isn't something people expect to pay for

All 3 of the CMers i have used discussed their charges at the first meeting, went through their contract with me, asked if i had any questions then insisted i take it away with me to read in my own time to make sure i was happy with it. Also, i fully expected to be paying for holidays.

You can also provide details on the true cost of the actual childcare

its all on the contract. On each of mine (and i met more than just the 3 i have used) i did a calculation to work out overall cost. As a SE person i am amazed you wouldnt automatically do that yourself. Surely you are used to working with numbers?

The impression I get from this thread, is that the OP just doesn't want to pay for the Christmas period and is looking for a way to justify not paying.

If the care has been unacceptable,why hasn't the contract been ended already? The fact that the OP has continued the contract and not raised serious concerns with the minder and not given notice, means she needs to stick to the terms and pay.

Of course she is fee to give notice, but will need to either keep sending her child there (and paying) until the notice period is up, or withdraw her child now and pay whatever penalty that involves. It would be TOTALLY unacceptable to renege on an agreement. Unfortunately, lots of childminders do experience people leaving without notice just before their paid holidays. I just hope this CM took a deposit from the OP and can then keep anything she is owed, because it seems to me that the OP is highly unlikely to pay what was agreed and is owed.

When I became a CM I worked out my fees based on how much I need to earn in order to make ends meet. This has to include all overheads, professional fees, materials, etc and any non-working periods such as sickness and holidays need to be accounted for too. This then has to be balanced against the average cost of childcare in the local area. I have to make a living and I'd be a fool not to my contingencies for periods where I'm not working.

I charge £4 p/hr for the two children I have before school and after school (7am to 9am and then 3pm to 5pm), it's a slightly higher rate than my standard rate because I'm keeping their slots during the day when they're at school (I could full them but no one wants 9 til 3, they want either wrap around or all day). For all day care for the younger ones/school holiday care for the school age children it is £3.50 p/hr.

These fees include all meals, snacks, crafts, fruit, drinks, playgroup fees and free outings such as to the park or the museum.

The parents sign the children in and out with the times noted and I invoice them at the end of each month for the hours used. This includes hours contracted but not actually used. For example, child A's mum finished work early and decided to collect him at lunchtime. I usually have him 7am til 5pm. She was invoiced to 5pm because these are the agreed hours and I was available for work.

If a child is sick I charge for whatever hours I would have had them that day, and for any subsequent days they are off (I have time limits for certain illness and infections), again because I am available for work and I am holding their place open for them.

If the parent takes holidays outside of my holiday periods then I charge for these too because I expected to be paid for those days as per our contract.

I am a highly trained professional. I didn't just qualify and call it done, I continually improve on my skills and my learning. I provide quality care in a safe nurturing environment and I genuinely enjoy the company of the children I'm looking after. That quality costs and I don't see why I should sell myself short or be considered deceitful.

All 3 of the CMers i have used discussed their charges at the first meeting, went through their contract with me, asked if i had any questions then insisted i take it away with me to read in my own time to make sure i was happy with it. Also, i fully expected to be paying for holidays.

They certainly don't all do that in my experience. It isn't good enough just to have it in the terms and conditions in my opinion. You may have expected to pay for holidays but that is perhaps because you already knew people who used childcare or hadn't thought about the fact that most business and self employed people only charge for the services they provide or are available to work. You wouldn't normally expect to pay a business if they were closed and I don't see why childminders or nurseries are any different.

its all on the contract. On each of mine (and i met more than just the 3 i have used) i did a calculation to work out overall cost. As a SE person i am amazed you wouldnt automatically do that yourself. Surely you are used to working with numbers?

That is a bit of a patronising statement. Why do you assume that I have been affected by this? I just think it is unfair to add a "holiday charge" for all the reasons I have stated above. The whole purpose of it is to make the hourly childcare charge seem lower than it is. If everyone could work out the true hourly cost of childcare as you claim the "holiday charge" wouldn't exist as there would be no point in it.

Whatever5

Yes.

For two children in Ft nursery care it was about £30k. I couldn't go back as my job didn't cover it!

And the media wonders why people don't go back to work for a while. If your old job wasn't the childcare cost, what do you do? There's ways and means sometimes but it sure bloody well explains the issue a bit clearer doesn't it? Considering as a woman I stopped earning in November too for 2014.

Anyway, I digressed.

If a cm is a business. And the business is also residential, facilities costs and staff (ie the cm) continue 365. As does paperwork, records, holding places, arts/crafts and facilities for the use of the children (maintenance etc). So why don't cms charge that time as well? Or some at least. It is annoying nurseries do but once explained can be understood even if still not liked.

But where's the line with cms? Genuinely interested as this could massively alter our childcare arrangements!!!!

It's a bit pointless to be annoyed about paying for the holiday now as you knew from day one that was the deal

Instead of wasting mental energy on that you should be looking for an alternative to this arrangement and get your DC out of their care. As someone said she probably didn't imagine your DS would talk about the cafe incident and I would be concerned about what else goes on that you don't know about.

I'm in the south and can think of at least 9 nurseries near me who do not charge at all for holidays.

And within the last few months having switched childminders I met with many above a certain ofstead rating and about 70% of them did not charge for their own sickness or holidays but did charge 100% for yours, and t was not hidden the going hourly rate around here is pretty much the same between the ones that do and the ones that don't, funnily enough mostly the ones that do charge for their time off were the more expensive hourly rate (only by a few pence the largest difference was only 25p). The main difference I noticed between child minders fees was oddly food charges.

Obviously I only looked within 20 miles of my house.

I've been using childminders for over 22 years and only have experienced using 1 who charged and that was quite an eye opener perhaps its a area related modern thing

I manage a nursery and we charge for bank holidays but of they ask, and presuming I've got the space, parents can swap the day for another one that month.
Fulltimers normally get a discount which offsets the bank holiday charges
If people had a gym membership and the gym was closed on bankholidays would people expect a discount?