To be annoyed paying childminder over Christmas?

[oinkyoink]

We have had a childminder (it's a mum in her 60s and 30ish year old daughter who work together) for the two kids since September. She collects my son at 11.30 from nursery and my daughter at 3 from school. She doesn't provide any food which is fine... She's not exactly a quality childminder or one that you rave about and say things like she's worth her weight in gold etc. I don't mean it in a nasty way, I am just aware that she never takes my son out and puts the TV a lot! When I first met the two of them I said I was interested in term time only. The mum had popped out for a second and the daughter said yes that is absolutely fine. When the mum came back I mentioned it again and she said oh no that's not possible at all, we are a business and we want 100% pay all year round whatever the issue. She gets 4 weeks holiday included. I was taken aback as the daughter had just said term time only was fine... Anyway because we had no other minders who could do what we needed we went with them. Now it's come to Xmas and we are having two weeks off and they are having 1.5 weeks off. I have to pay them £240 per week for the two weeks we are away and it's really irritating me. A nanny would cost me a bit more but we would get such better value out of her (doing cooking kids laundry etc) so what do I do? Is it normal a minder charges so much?

There have been a couple of incidences too. My son told me they went to a cafe one day, he asked her for a drink and a muffin and she said no no yet she sat there and had a coffee. I brought this up with her and she was highly embarrassed and the next day she had him in a cafe sending me photos of him with a big muffin etc etc (too late- my son already got the idea what he means to her) he asks her to play with play doh or paint and she says no they can't as one of her nieces has taken the paint (white lies) or play doh. It's not acceptable. It's very clear they are in the business just for the money. I didn't sign the contract she have me at the start, it's still lying on the microwave... I think if I were really happy with them id pay however they really aren't amazing in any way and the little incidences have really bugged me. Thoughts appreciated...

You would have to pays nursery over Xmas, despite the fact many close, and you would have to pay a nanny holiday pay. So a childminder isn't really any different I don't think. This particular one sounds a bit useless, I can understand why you don't want to pay her holidays!

Oh I don't know whatever. I think I would do some research about childminding as a profession if I was going to engage a childminder, that's all.

What you would do is irrelevant. You should be able to expect a "professional," particularly one that looks after children to operate fairly and not try to conceal their charges/make their charges look lower than they really are.

You would have to pays nursery over Xmas, despite the fact many close, and you would have to pay a nanny holiday pay.

I never paid a nursery/after school club for Christmas. A nanny would be different as they are employees.

expect a "professional," particularly one that looks after children to operate fairly and not try to conceal their charges/make their charges look lower than they really are.

its not concealing charges. If self employed people didnt set their charges to cover any downtime they expect to have then they couldnt afford to take the down time. ALL SE people set their rates so that they make enough while working to be able to take time off. If they dont then they are very stupid and will burn out very quickly due to never having a break. This is common sense and standard practice. I cant believe you are accusing CMers of being underhand for doing exactly what every single other SE person does without an eyebrow raised!

its not concealing charges.

It is concealing charges as by doing this as they make themselves appear less costly than they are. The only reason for doing this is to make themselves appear cheaper than childminders who charge a higher hourly rates because they only charge when they are actually available for work.

I've never experienced a CM concealing anything. We have always discussed opening times, time off, charges, minimum hours etc at the first meeting and then I have been provided with a detailed contract which I read.

It is concealing charges as by doing this as they make themselves appear less costly than they are.

Think it through! If their hourly rate is cheaper this means they will be stating their holiday rates in the contract! How is that concealing them??

OK, Needsasockamnesty, what makes you think this contract would be found to be unfair?

I don't I said it could potentially be challenged and it would be up to a court to decide because a contract can be challenged often things are not quite so cut and dried as t&c end of. Her contract could be perfect or it could be a pile of old pants.

When I elected not to carry on sending my children to my ex CM I sent her a check for the notice period she felt the notice I worked out was incorrect so attempted to enforce her contract in court she failed and I now have a ccj against her obviously the circumstances are not going to be the same but her contract being unfair and unclear and rubbish helped a great deal

Think it through! If their hourly rate is cheaper this means they will be stating their holiday rates in the contract! How is that concealing them??

You think it through.. You statement makes no sense at all.

It makes complete sense!

If someone doesnt charge for holidays then they have to increase their hourly rate to cover their holidays. You are saying those that have a reduced rate are concealing their holiday charges. Well they are the ones actually charging for holidays so how are they concealing it?

If they have a Reduced rate and arent charging holidays then what exactly are you suggesting is being concealed?

'no that's not possible at all, we are a business and we want 100% pay all year round whatever the issue'

The Op admits in her opening post that she knew about the holiday charges before her DC even started.In what way was anything concealed.It sounds as though she wants to benefit from a lower hourly rate and not pay for the holidays.

Example

CMer 1: charges £5 an hour and doesnt charge for holidays

CMer 2: charges £4.50 an hour and does charge for holidays.

CMer1 has inlcuded her holiday pay in her hourly rate.

CMer2 has stated her holiday fee up front in her contract.

Please tell me where the deceit is?

You knew about paying during holiday time at the start so YABU to complain about it now.

YANBU about your other complaints though, not in the slightest. I have a friend who is a childminder and she is way more involved and caring than the one you describe.

WhyYouGottaBeSoRude the deceit is in the fact that childminder 2 is making herself look cheaper than childminder 1. A client may decide to use childminder 2 on the basis that she appears to be cheaper than childminder 1 but actually she is the same price.
You may argue that it is up to the client to read the contract carefully and do the calculation to work out the true cost of childminder 1 compared with childminder 2 and to some extent I agree but I still don't think it is on for a "professional" to try and give the impression that service they provide is cheaper than it is.

You are being ridiculous. It is absoloutely up to the customer to read the contract. The holiday costs on every CMer contract i have signed have been clearly stated- there is a box for the CMer to write them in. They arent in the small print or anything.

ALL SE people charge for their holidays by setting their rate to cover holidays. CMers are no different. If they didnt charge for them they couldnt take them and that would be pretty shitty for your kids.

There is nothing deceitful about STATING IN YOUR CONTRACT what you charge for holidays. Nothing at all. Only an idiot would not bother to check the contract and sign it anyway.

WhyYouGottaBeSoRude I am not being ridiculous at all. Just because something is written in a contract, it doesn't mean that it is fair or transparent. If someone says that they charge a certain price per hour for a service you don't expect them to have added extra charges to be hidden in the contract for services not rendered. Yes, people should read contracts carefully but not every one is very literate or good at calculations.

Just because something is written in a contract, it doesn't mean that it is fair or transparent.

So why is it unfair for CMers to STATE CLEARLY IN THEIR CONTRACTS what they charge for holidays? Please explain this

And why is it not transparent when it is CLEARLY STATED IN THE CONTRACT what they charge for holidays? Again, explain how that is not transparent.

If someone says that they charge a certain price per hour for a service you don't expect them to have added extra charges to be hidden in the contract for services not rendered

They arent hidden in the contract. They are clearly stated along with hourly rate, late fees, sibling discount, cost of meals (if not already included) what the parents are expected to provide (nappies, suncream etc) what the hours childcare is being provided for, emergency contacts, health information, GP name and contact and a whole lot more stuff. Unless you consider all that stuff to also have been "hidden" in the contract?

There are also many CMers who do not advertise a price at all. They tell the price during the initial meeting with the parents along with what their holidays will be and whether they charge or not. A decent CMer will also give you the contract away to read over and be sure you are happy with it. Anyone who cant read or count would have opportunity to have someone else read it and explain it to them.

for services not rendered

They arent charging for services not rendered. It clearly says "charge for holidays" it doesnt say "charge for childcare not provided"

"So why is it unfair for CMers to STATE CLEARLY IN THEIR CONTRACTS what they charge for holidays? Please explain this*

And why is it not transparent when it is CLEARLY STATED IN THE CONTRACT what they charge for holidays? Again, explain how that is not transparent.

It wasn't clearly stated in the "sample" contract the childminder dd went to gave me to read when I visited her. I would have noticed. Even if it was stated in the contract, I think it should have also have been brought to my attention so I could compare her price with the after school club (who don't charge when they are closed funnily enough).
In my opinion, if a childminder wishes to charge for times they are not available to provide childcare they should have to state the true hourly cost the childcare (i.e. total cost per year/childcare hours provided) so that people who aren't good at calculations are able to compare costs more easily. That would be more transparent.

They arent charging for services not rendered. It clearly says "charge for holidays" it doesnt say "charge for childcare not provided"

They may not state that it is a "charge for childcare not provided" but in effect that is what it is!

whatever I'm afraid you're not really making sense.
Are you saying all cM'ers should state the total cost per year?? Surely you can see that is nonsense?
The true cost is reflected in the fact that the cm either charges or doesn't charge for their holiday.
If a prospective parent is too illiterate to understand this then they should take the contract away with them to get someone else to read it for them and explain.
I don't get your problem

Are you saying all cM'ers should state the total cost per year?? Surely you can see that is nonsense?

No I am stating that they should state the total cost of childcare divided by the total hours of childcare provided. This would give the true cost childcare/hour. If you think that is nonsense then you don't understand my point.

I should have said childcare hours available rather than provided.

It wasn't clearly stated in the "sample" contract the childminder dd went to gave me to read when I visited her. I would have noticed.

Ok so this is all because YOU had not so great childminder? You are accusing all CMers of being underhand because you met one who was?

Every contract i have seen from a CMer has had it clearly stated.

I registered to be a CMer myself and was provided with sample contracts. They all had the box for holiday charges. There was nothing sneaky about it.

Also- you say it wasnt stated in the sample contract. Was it stated in the actual contract you signed?

if a childminder wishes to charge for times they are not available to provide childcare they should have to state the true hourly cost the childcare (i.e. total cost per year/childcare hours provided)

Childminders dont provide and annual cost of childcare. It would be difficult to do because sometimes arrangements change, sometimes parents require extra care one week, sometimes less care, sometimes there are late fees, sometimes CMers are sick. If CMers had to provide and annual cost at the start of care there would be a whole of parents taking the piss at the end of the year saying they had paid more than the projected cost. It would take a load of time to sort out.

CMers provide an hourly rate, and sometimes a weekly or monthly one. They also provide a holiday rate, a late fee rate, a sickness rate, an unsociable hours rate, an overnight rate, a meal rate, an outing rate and many other things. None of these are 'hidden' if stated on the contract.

They may not state that it is a "charge for childcare not provided" but in effect that is what it is!

Nope- its a charge for holidays. If it was a charge for childcare not provided it would include every single hour the child wasnt there (overnights and weekends)

Tbh it just comes accross as you dont think CMers deserve holiday pay.

No, I don't understand your point. A CM would never break the cost down like that as the total hours can change vastly such as when a child is off ill or on holiday, or the parent collects early for a few days.
I don't understand why it's too complicated to read the contract.
The vast majority of CM's use one of 2 standard contracts which are both very clear, easy to understand and transparent in all aspects of price.
There is a simple 2 box tick for " If I am unavailable to care for your child I will A) not charge for that day or B) charge for that day and the cost is x.
It really couldn't be more transparent.

Question; what is different then about a childminder to a nursery?

A nursery charges at holidays etc. It pays for building, electricity, staff, the sort of facilities type stuff whether or not kids there.

Why wouldn't a childminder therefore? I know it's a home but it's also a business. Is it because it is solely a home on eg bank hols? Just wondering....

I'm confused btw not sarky, to be clear.