Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

[Discopanda]

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

All the people posting here who have come to question vaccinations are giving very coherent arguments, while the pros just call people loonies, and put out anti-vaccination arguments that they have supposedly heard by are not present in this thread

There are many articulate idiots in this world. Just because you have good grammar and solid sentence structure doesn't mean you have a coherent argument.

If your child can't get vaccines, you do want other children to get them so they don't carry diseases to your children. If they can, you want them to get vaccines so they themselves don't get it, and so they don't spread it to a child with an immunodeficiency.

Not getting a vaccine because your child personally can't get one doesn't make you anti-vax unless you think no child should get it. Medical reasons don't throw people in the anti-vax camp, it puts them in the unable-to-vax camp, which is understandable and necessary for their individual situation.

But we can stick with facts. I've attached an infograph to show a fatality comparison before and after vaccines.

When you can give me an argument that proves that vaccines cause more deaths and damage than pre-vaccines I will be willing to listen.

Nuts, wheat, eggs, milk, and soybeans can cause life threatening reactions as well. Unless you are just as adamant about never giving your child any of those foods, your worries about vaccines are just as ridiculous as never allowing your child to eat anything other than a very specialized diet just in case.

In the mean time, I'm just going to call anti-vax movement what it is: Pro-disease.

And I am always amazed people so willing to believe this autism link when when the op was a a baby pretty much everyone was given a vaccine yet I could hardly tell you anyone I knew who's child had autism

My son was damaged by the pertussis ( whooping cough) vaccine.
We had medical treatment to rectify this problem which lasted years.
As a result GP advisesd up to hold of MMR vaccine until teenage years ( he has now had his MMR).

Vaccines are not without risk.

Well I know hardly anyone with autism, doesn't mean it doesn't exist [confused[

Also not everyone who "questioned vaccination" is in the unable to vac camp or, indeed, is anti vax at all. I'm with Coyoacn - fanatic refusal to look at any risks just creates panic IME

It's this insistence as well. "this disease (which you might not even catch) has a risk of disability or death!" "But does the vaccine have risks?" "Oh no!

CDC Whistleblower Emerges: Admits Coverup on Vaccine Link to Autism - See more at: healthimpactnews.com/2014/cdc-whistleblower-comes-forward-admits-coverup-on-vaccine-link-to-autism/#sthash.fftiXQEt.dpuf

Story of 2014 on all natural news and indepdent news stations across the world, but not a peep from the mainstream. hhhhmmmm....

Mimilovell

Do you really take that seriously? You do know the paper was retracted because Hooker didnt understand basic statistics and he competitive interest which he did not declare.

I'm with Coyoacn - fanatic refusal to look at any risks just creates panic IME

Yes. There are risks.

Your child could have an incredibly rare, but adverse reaction to a vaccine.
Your child could die of SIDS and as an adult they can die of SADS.
Your child could die in a car accident on the way to the GP.
Your child could have a fatal reaction to eating a peanut.

Your child could die and get severely sick from all sorts of ways that are far more common than a vaccine related illness/death. Yet, I see no one that is afraid of vaccines refusing to put their child in a car, where they're far more likely to end up permanently disabled from a crash than they are from a jab.

It's a phobia pure and simple, with no logical basis. If it were going on logical basis and statistics, then they would keep their child from getting into a car.

You can choose not to vaccinate your child, sure. But catering to anxiety is never a proven method of overcoming anxiety.

the risks are well publicised by the NHS

Further down someone equated non vax as pro-disease

What nonsense!

I vaccinate. But my friend does not... What she does do:

Is be incredibly careful over hand washing
Feed her kids an all organic healthy diet
Use probiotics and vitamins
Pay a fortune for private healthcare
And home schools

If I had the time and money to be as careful as her! I could hardly call how careful she is as someone lax about diseases

The vaccine schedule in Mexico starts with hep-B at two days old. For the life of me I cannot understand why they have to vaccinate a two-day-old baby against a disease that is contracted through sexual contact or shared needles.

[[http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/ suggest you read
information from WHO]]

But my friend does not... What she does do:
Is be incredibly careful over hand washing
Feed her kids an all organic healthy diet
Use probiotics and vitamins
Pay a fortune for private healthcare
And home schools

You forgot to include on the list benefits from other people in contact with her children being vaccinated.

I really don't think any amount of hand washing or organic food will protect a person from rubella, polio, TB, measles etc.

Vaccination is an economic argument. It's much cheaper for the state (and NHS) to treat a few people who have an adverse reaction to a vaccination who can prove it and don't die in the meantime than to treat lots of people who fall ill (and the loss of productivity in their parents/carers who stay at home from work to look after them). That is why it pushes vaccination so much.

I firmly believe that parents should make their own decisions based on their own research. The risk, however small, exists that if you are vaccinated you could have a bad reaction that disables you for the rest of your life. It is not irrational to fear that bad reaction and the impact it will have not just on your child but your family. Yes getting in a car is riskier, but don't assume that parents don't weigh up those risks. As an example, whenever my son goes on a school trip I do wonder if the bus will arrive/return safely, but I weigh up the risk and decide that missing the school trip would be an overreaction to that concern. Same with getting on a plane, if I don't go I don't get my holiday. But others wouldn't fly. Yes it might seem irrational to you, but it's not to them. Planes crash (or get shot down or just disappear) so for them it's dangerous to get on one. So you consider the illness and its possible consequences against the risk of vaccination. For me, when you look at things like meningitis or tetanus it's a no-brainer. But when you come to mumps for a girl or rubella for a boy, it's more nuanced.

However, those who say "you shouldn't have MMR because you don't get all those diseases at once in real life" are misinformed. I had mumps and measles together at the age of 5 so it absolutely can happen. I was pretty ill. I had all the other childhood illnesses as well except for slapped cheek disease which I got from my son when he was 3 and it wasn't funny getting it as an adult.

My son had the first lot of vaccinations at the usual 2/3/4 months old but he had his MMR when he was 6 years old (possibly having had the illness mumps in the meantime - he had the symptoms, but my husband who had the same symptoms at the same time was diagnosed with a throat infection although he didn't have mumps as a child so who knows). He did have a reaction to it and I have never regretted the fact that I waited until he was old enough to be able to tell me how he felt. If he had been a baby it would have been terrifying. Fortunately it was not serious and he recovered quickly.

Yes I appreciate that some children cannot be vaccinated so rely on herd immunity. That means that you want me to take a risk to protect your child. But if my son was one of the unlucky ones who was disabled by a vaccination and say caused mayhem in a supermarket would you be helping me? Almost certainly not, you'll be round the corner wondering why I can't keep my brat under control. Lets not be hypocritical. Parents do what is right for their children not what is considered to be socially responsible.

I am shocked people still fear MMR!

The Doctor Andrew Wakefield concerned was getting paid by a law firm to create a link (which he failed to disclose)

Just wiki it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield#Wakefield_response

Its statements like coyoacan who claim to have done their research, when they clearly havent that bothers. Either they have done their research and dont understand what they have read or they rely on some seriously dodgy websites ie whale, mercola, natural news or websites that link to them.
Surely if you find out something that you dont understand ie mexico vaccinates babies at 2 days for a disease you dont think merits it, you would take it further and investigate why they do it, then you would have found out that actually 30- 40% of cases of chronic hepatitis actually start in childhood and they younger you are when you catch it the more likely it will be chronic and newborn babies catch it from their mothers etc.

By the way i gave a link early to the IOM book on vaccines reaction and causality if anyone really is interested in the diseases versus the vaccination.

iom review of effects and causality of vaccines

Chunderella, would you please update Wikipedia then

The virus is transmitted by exposure to infectious blood or body fluids. Infection around the time of birth or from contact with other people during childhood is the most frequent method by which hepatitis B is acquired in areas where the disease is common. In areas where the disease is rare intravenous drug use and sexual intercourse are the most frequent routes of infection.[1] Other risk factors include: working in healthcare, blood transfusions, dialysis, living with an infected person, travel in countries where the infection rate is high, and living in an institution

Have you looked up how common hep b is in mexico coyoacan.
You queried the fact that newborns are given a vaccine which you stated could only be caught by needles and sex, which is clearly not correct.

newborn babies catch it from their mothers

Is there no test can be done on pregnant women then, bruffin?

As I say, I vaccinated my dd as I was also vaccinated, but the number of vaccines has increased exponentially and each vaccine comes associated with other products, making that a huge amount of possibly toxic substances to inject into a small body.

Your link to that article will be very useful for the OP, but we do still have a problem with underreporting of adverse effects from vaccines that does not help.

And I not totally against vaccines either. If they came up with a reliable vaccine against dengue, which appears to be in the pipeline, I would be thrilled.

Coyocan
Where do i start with your post.
Firstly vacvines have not increased expodentially. We have more vaccine but those vaccines have less of a viral load than they did in the past.
secondly
Toxic substances. What are you talking about. You do know most of the substances the scaremongers talk about are naturally occurring in the body any way or are in food or breastmilk. See my link on alluminium which seems to be the latest cary toxin.
As for under reporting, actually the problem is the opposite. Minor reactions such as a sore arm may be under reported but there is evidence that lawyers report vacvine reactions to create evidence for their. Any one can report a vaccine reaction and often its not causal just correlation