Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

[Discopanda]

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

shame it's not in anyone's interests to fund thorough research now retrospectively to form proper evidence re harms, shame adverse reactions are n=1 cases that aren't reported or analysed with sufficient power/funding.

Dinosaur was referring to the venous blood that goes from your GI tract via mesenteric veins/splenic vein to form the hepatic portal vein to the liver. It does not enter the main circulation.

Nobody was nitpicking and yours was more than a spelling mistake so its easy to see how it was misunderstood.

Firstly we dont know that Alzheimer is caused by aluminium, the jury is still out on that, from the Alzheimer organisation

"Myth 4: Drinking out of aluminum cans or cooking in aluminum pots and pans can lead to Alzheimer’s disease.

Reality: During the 1960s and 1970s, aluminum emerged as a possible suspect in Alzheimer’s. This suspicion led to concern about exposure to aluminum through everyday sources such as pots and pans, beverage cans, antacids and antiperspirants. Since then, studies have failed to confirm any role for aluminum in causing Alzheimer’s. Experts today focus on other areas of research, and few believe that everyday sources of aluminum pose any threat."

and secondly injected aluminium is eliminated through the bloodstream and they know most of it is eliminated in a day. The dose makes the poison and the amount of aluminium is tiny and a fraction of the body burden.
FWIW aluminium poisoning only tends to be found in industrial exposure and those in long term dialysis and in premature babies on intravenous feeding solutions that contain aluminum long term.

more doctors today do not have experience with these diseases because they've all but been eliminated, so you wouldn't be getting quality and knowledgeable care for it

This was actually what made me decide to vaccinate DS against everything offered at the time. My own conclusion not based on any argument from either side.

Perhaps the information on mumsnet was always this good or perhaps the information around is much improved these days but thank you for taking the time to explain that, I hope it helps a lurker somewhere make up their mind. I also liked the point about the body being able to handle part of a dead disease in a vaccine, because that's not a way I'd thought about it before. And you're right that the other ingredients we come across "naturally" in our normal lifestyles.

If I'm really honest with myself my initial suspicion around vaccination is the fact I have a massive phobia of needles and didn't want to subject my child to what I experience as excruciating pain if it was unnecessary. I was looking for an out. Somehow even though I did my best acting ever, recruited extremely matter of fact friends to come with me etc for DS' jabs he somehow managed to pick up my fear telepathically and it took three people to hold him down for his pre school jabs. If we have more DC I'm making DH take them, and screw the fact that breastfeeding is an anaesthetic!

Have you heard of Purple Pinkie Day Chunderella?
My dcs school have connections with local rotary who raise money for 3rd world polio vaccines and have a purple pinkie day to raise funds.

When the health workers turn up with the polio vaccine on a sugar cube, they found the little ones were going to the back of the queue for another sugar cube, so to differentiate between the ones that have already been vaccinated they paint their little finger purple and give them a plain sugar cube next time round.

We just had the vaccine without a sugar cube but I was given a great tip to take after eights into school! They're really strong so mask the taste if you shove one in your mouth directly afterwards. I don't even remember how it tastes.

I wish they would have two options. I'd take a pill the size of a medicine ball to avoid an injection, I hate them. I can just about cope with a cannula, if they could do it that way but it's the intramuscular ones I don't like. I find them really painful - childbirth was better!

BertieBotts - sugar cube vaccine back 50s and 60s, do you mean the polio vaccine? You know the one laced with SV40 Cancer virus, which is known to attach itself to your DNA and be replicated down the bloodline. It was only because of an investigative journalist who revealed the story I think back in the late 70s/ 80s that the officals finally admitted to it, but then said it doesnt cause cancer. And thre was a top scientist at the time who predicted in 40 years time (that is how long cancer usually take to manifest) when these children who will be near retirement that the there would be an epademic. And what are we seeing now? And is the SV40 found in the cancer tumurs? Yes it is.

I haven't the foggiest mimi. But it was significantly later than that when I had it.

I've vaccinated my children but I have since learned a lot and, being pregnant with DC4, I am very concerned that this time I make an informed decision rather than just unquestioningly doing as I'm told.

I have spent countless hours reading papers and research from both sides of the debate and I am still genuinely confused.

About herd immunity though, vaccinations are effective for life, they lose their effectiveness between 2 and 10 years, hence the need for boosters. So unless everyone - all adults included - are up to date on their vaccines and boosters then we are all being exposed to people who don't have full immunity all the time. Also as we know, vaccines don't guarantee you won't still catch the disease. Some people will get vaccinated and still go on to catch the disease and therefore be able to spread it. And what about vaccine shedding where live attenuated viruses are used? There are documented cases of recently vaccinated people infecting others.

human fetal cells from an aborted fetus are used to culture some vaccines like MMR - as are bovine cells, monkey cells, dog cells, pig cells and chicken eggs. I have read that there are none of these cells
Present in the final vaccine as they are purified to remove it. but if that were always 100% effective then people with egg allergies wouldn't have to avoid the flu vaccine.

Also back in 2010 the FDA temporarily withdrew the rotarix vaccine because it was contaminated with the porcine circo virus 1. It was eventually reinstated but knowing that contaminants do indeed get into vaccines I think it is prudent to do your research whether you are pro, anti or somewhere in the middle.

There is no evidence supporting the theory that SV40 in polio vaccines has caused cancer.

www.cancer.gov/newscenter/newsfromnci/2004/sv40

cazzyg - so what saying is your happy with having monkey virus connecting itself to your DNA for you to replicate down to your children and your children's children?

Here are other studies which says virus can cause cancer
Virologists and immunologists at Imperial College London and University of Zurich- Gene clue to how virus causes cancer www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_16-3-2012-16-1-31

If viruses cant cause cancer why are they injecting teenage girls with the HPV vaccine (I would never give to my little girl and other countries have banned this due to safety and reported deaths)

If the SV40 doesnt have anything to do with the cancer, why is the SV40 virus inside the cancer cells?

I rather not have it, thank you.

Totally agree with Threeplus1. I use to pay for vaccines and when I started to looking into it, I was angry of how mislead I was. And I was even more angry that we are not told the truth so that we can all make an informed decision.

The amount of egg albumin in most vaccines is so small that it is in fact ok to vaccinate children and adults with egg allergies. Where the allergy is severe the vaccine may be given under hospital conditions.

The cell lines that are used to grow viruses such as rubella are not using aborted foetuses. When the original mmr vaccine was developed a tiny amount of cell from two aborted foetuses were used to develop the cell line.

Thiomersal is not an ingredient in any uk childhood schedule Vaccinations...

Just saying.

You're oversimplifying cancer. Cancer isn't just one disease with one cause, yes exposure to HPV can lead to cervical cancer but not all cervical tumours are caused by HPV.

Many studies did not show SV40 in tumours, in those that did, some of the individuals did not get the polio vaccine, it may be down to contamination as SP40 is often found in molecular biology labs.

Regardless, it's not present in today's polio vaccines.

Mimilove you have been mislead by the antivax websites you have used to look into it. There has been plenty of discussion on the cdc autism leak and it was a complete non story.

idefex I didn't say vaccines are grown in cell lines from aborted fetuses, I specifically said an aborted fetus Your interpretation makes it sound like I was saying it is an ongoing practice to take cells from aborted fetuses. There is no need for this as the original cell lines are replicated so no more are needed.

My point about the egg albumen is that, if egg cells remain, even in tiny amounts, after purification, what of bovine, porcine, canine and human diploid cells? Can we be 100% sure they don't too - even in tiny amounts?

just saying is such a smug, passive aggressive response and not helpful at all.

It seems that when it comes to this debate, due caution is treated as stupidity and the most horrible accusations are thrown.

I am withdrawing as I can see having read back through the whole thread that simply daring to look into the subject and question the party line just leads to genuinely concerned people being ridiculed.

threeplus1
your comments about herd immunity are nonsense. look at the spread of disease and what actually happens.
Yes not everyone gets full immunity but the more that are vaccinated the less chance it has to spread. Rubella is virtually non existant nowadays. Over 90% of lab tested cases are coming back negative. We have been vaccinating against measles for 40 odd years, where are all the measles outbreaks in adults?
Even mumps where there were outbreaks in teenagers who had not had boosters, they found that they only had mild cases and none of the normal complications.How many cases of tetanus, diptheria do we see today or babies dying of whooping cough.
We have bern using aluminium as an adjuvant for 70 years, if there was a problem with it we would have found out by now.
There was a recent paper thst looked at anaphylaxis in vaccines. They could only find 15 out of 50 million. Even not all of those could be directly attrubuted to vaccines and then 6 of them were single measles vaccines.Single measles are only available jabs clinic that trades in on the autism scare.
Have you read the IOM book i linked to above?

Apologies if I misunderstood your statement but I certainly read it as you believing that foetuses were still being used.

I guess my difficulty in understanding your arguments/concerns is that I really don't get your problem. Ultimately parents do have the right to say no to vaccines for their children. Their children will be at risk of developing those diseases if exposed to them. My concern is that the reasons why people make these decisions are not based on scientific fact and empirical evidence.

As a hcp I often have young people requesting vaccinations that they did not have as a child. In some cases these young people are entering professions where it is mandatory for them to be vaccinated, mmr, hep b, bcg for trainee nurses and military recruits.
Really didn't intend to come across as passive aggressive I am unashamedly pro vaccination based on the scientific evidence that is out there, based on peer reviewed studies and validated research. I don't mean ride rough shod over your due caution but I am yet to see validated evidence to support it.
Without a doubt it can seem very counter intuitive to inject foreign matter into tiny, precious babies however the consequences of not vaccinating can quite simply be dreadful.

DrLego
shame it's not in anyone's interests to fund thorough research now retrospectively to form proper evidence re harms, shame adverse reactions are n=1 cases that aren't reported or analysed with sufficient power/funding.

I'm with you.

Bulbasaur
4. The risk of getting damaged from a vaccine is so rare, they have a separate fund set aside for it because it shouldn't even happen. You'd have more luck winning the powerball.

Bold is mine. How do you quantify something that hasn't been properly measured? Regarding payouts: I learnt the other day that the founder of JABS was awarded a sum from the UK fund in 2010, on appeal, some 13 years after she had first applied and been rejected. This was for her then 18 year old son who was brain damaged after receiving the MMR as baby.

The Vaccine Damage Payment scheme currently awards a one off payment of up to £120,000 - but only for those whose children are deemed to be 'severely disabled' (or '60% disabled') as a result of a vaccine, which is very difficult to prove. I don't know about anyone else, but the payment sounds pretty derisory. There is a lack of transparency with regards to payments made by the fund. Means of accessing information seems to be making a successful Freedom of Information request. Information on payouts by vaccine is denied. It seems pretty obvious and logical to me that parents should have access to relevant data in order to make an informed choice, instead of being told repeatedly that vaccines are safe (which I'm sure they are, for the vast majority of healthy people).

If you read the reports on the appeal of the founder of jabs it is clear that he probably had an underlying problem such as Dravets disease or similar. Any disease that caused a high temperature could have caused the same problems. It was never a clear cut case of vaccine damage.

Haven't come across mention of an underlying issue, bruffin. Happy to read a report if you can link to one. It does rather beg the question: where, in the vaccine administration process, is consideration given to individual medical profiles (difficult, given the age at which many vaccines are administered), family history, and possibility of contraindications?

the Vax/anti-vax arguemetn in a a comic strip format

"genetically predisposed to epilepsy and that the vaccination triggered it rather than caused it. Robert would have developed epilepsy in any event, even if he had not had the vaccination.”

There was 3 panal members one was Professor Sundara Lingam who was a consultant at Great Ormand Street and was the panal member who voted against the appeal which was won 2-1.
I cant find the report where i got this from ( i copied the quote from a previous posting of mine)

My ds has a similar condition without the brain damage called GEFS+. He incidently had his first febrile convulsion at around the same age as Robert Fletcher and within a few weeks of his mmr, although RFs was 10 days after his MMR.
This type of condition is not apparent until it happens and as I mentioned in post above they did do research on vaccine damage cases only to find they all had Dravets syndrome.

The point I was making is that "vaccine damage" is not that simple which is why this went to appeal and then it was not a clear cut case.