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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

260 replies

Discopanda · 17/12/2014 18:16

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

OP posts:
Looseleaf · 17/12/2014 19:00

I am almost 100% sure DD suffered damage from her vaccines and hers (given abroad) contained heavy metals far higher than what is safe for a young baby but i just trusted the professionals and only found out when researched them in worried retrospect. Whilst we still vaccinated DS, he had a different schedule and i declined starting until he was much older (DD has many allergies,possibly unrelated, he has none).

If anyone thinks I take it lightly, I don't. I believe vaccines have a very important use and really matter but i also believe in making an informed choice and finding out how they work etc and realising there can be an impact on health even if it's just increased ear infections etc. I only read of one independent study comparing the health of vaccinated v non-vaccinated and the non-vaccinated children were 4 times healthier. I don't wish to get into any discussions again as really fretted over this and putting it all behind me now but having really disapproved of the anti-vax group I ended up seriously rethinking through my own strong instincts and upset over DD

Sidge · 17/12/2014 19:02

In my experience some people are anti-vaccination because of misinformation and misunderstanding. Often when it is explained to them what the vaccines are for, how they work and why and when they are given they become more open minded.

There are some children (and adults) that shouldn't receive some vaccinations due to health issues, underlying conditions, medication and allergies, but they tend to be in a minority.

Discopanda · 17/12/2014 19:02

What kind of vaccination complications are we talking about? The only thing on the NHS website is that 1 in 1000 children may have a seizure. Is it the standard childhood vaccines that they react to or separate, non-routine ones?

OP posts:
WittyUsername102 · 17/12/2014 19:10

DD1 and 2 did not have all of their vaccines, because some of the vaccines were very new at the time... no doubt that testing has improved since thalidomide and etc, but I'd still rather my DC not be in the first 'few' to have any sort of new medicine, unless it was life threatening.

I think it's very hard to find unbiased views on the issue though. Of course sites like the NHS will tell you they're safe, while very few anti-vaccination sites will give the other side of the argument.

Andro · 17/12/2014 19:12

Bulbasaur that is a vile accusation, just because a parent doesn't have a diagnosed medical reason for a particular child, it doesn't mean that not vaccination isn't a valid decision.

A mother who has seen vaccination cause problems with one child, my well make choices for their other children based on that - no direct medical reason but still valid (dh an I have done this with respect to ds after vaccination put our dd in ICU - there was no doubt about what made her I'll). I resent the implication that I would like to see my son die!

GraysAnalogy · 17/12/2014 19:12

I react badly to the Hep b vaccine. But I know it's much better than getting hepatitis.

I'm a massive advocate for vaccines, when it is safe for people to have them ie no underlying conditions or allergies.

wanderingcloud · 17/12/2014 19:13

I'm also always curious about this too. I'm a microbiologist and studied immunology at Uni (many moons ago now I must admit) I've researched widely the arguments for and against vaccinating when I was studying and I just couldn't find any notable, reliable, trustworthy arguments against except for the fairly rare circumstances where it is medically unadvised. I suppose I possibly have too much faith in the scientific method. I can't buy into a lot of the ideas about Big Pharma etc. I am actually quite interested to know the reasoning behind not vaxing as I personally couldn't find the evidence from reliable sources.

Andro · 17/12/2014 19:15

For the record, I'm pro vax...I'm just not willing to risk another child in ICU.

listed · 17/12/2014 19:16

Yes it goes:

Blah blah blah..... my children are too special to be vaccinated..... Blah blah blah...... but you'd better do yours so mine don't die of German measles.

GraysAnalogy · 17/12/2014 19:16

wandering if you're ever interested there's anti vax facebook pages where these sorts of people come together and share 'information', usually in the form of blog posts from random people which they take as Absolute Fact.

fluffling · 17/12/2014 19:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GraysAnalogy · 17/12/2014 19:19

It most definitely was discredited. And there's been countless studies to try and replicate his 'results' including a large scale Japanese one but no links to autism were found.

CoolCat2014 · 17/12/2014 19:21

A doctor got bribed by the makers of the single vaccine. He put it out there that vaccine causes autism. Parents with autistic children jumped on this as autism often first shows around the age of the vaccine. Parents got scared and paranoid and starting finding other issues with vaccines.

unlucky83 · 17/12/2014 19:27

I'm pro vaccine...had my children done - in fact they were eligible for the BCG (TB) (both born when it was still given to everyone as a teen (not as babies, only to at risk groups as it is now) so when it was offered to my then 6 yo I discovered my 12 yo had been 'forgotten'. I got them both done - in fact I am furious that it is no longer routinely given...think it is a misguided false economy.)
BUT no vaccine is 100% safe...for a start that is why you have to stay in the waiting room for 10(?) minutes after them just in case there is an allergic reaction. Children have been damaged by them.
On the other hand they are a tiny percentage and the risk to them of the disease is greater than the risk of harm from the vaccine...
Reason I was anti MMR (but my children have had it) was the blurb the government sent out made my blood boil...it was too positive - almost unbelievable. I would suggest that rather than making parents feel confident, it did more harm than good in the MMR debacle. It definitely made me go to the original research papers/look into to it far more than I would have otherwise.

Bulbasaur · 17/12/2014 19:27

A mother who has seen vaccination cause problems with one child, my well make choices for their other children based on that - no direct medical reason but still valid (dh an I have done this with respect to ds after vaccination put our dd in ICU - there was no doubt about what made her I'll). I resent the implication that I would like to see my son die!

I'm sorry your child ended up in ICU, but that is not a common occurrence, nor is it necessarily from the vaccine. I can see your child having a latent flu virus that was triggered from a vaccine, but in and of themselves that's very rare unless they have an underlying medical condition.

I wouldn't let that stop you from vaccinating your other child who has a completely different genetic makeup though. That's like saying you'll never let your child eat a hamburger because your other child got food poisoning from one once. It's not the norm and the benefits of getting vaccinated out weigh the risks.

CoolCat2014 · 17/12/2014 19:30

2011 BMJ article exposing the fraud:
www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452

AryaUnderfoot · 17/12/2014 19:34

I'm sure some people would think I'm crazy, irresponsible and cruel etc, but.......

My DS was part of a vaccine trial.

It was a standard double-blind trial testing a new vaccine against the standard one. At the end of the trial it was revealed that he had been given the trial vaccine and it is now in general use.

LongDistanceLove · 17/12/2014 19:39

This sums it up for me. I think a big anti vax argument comes from America, yep big pharma would much rather you spend $50 on a vaccine rather than the cost of treating a deadly illness.

Obviously there are exceptions to this, and those parents should never ever be tarred with the same brush. Jenny McCarthy and her ilk should be ashamed.

www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied

FreudiansSlipper · 17/12/2014 19:42

ds had fits after his combination vaccinations (not the last one thankfully) but the one that was not a combination he was fine

I am not sure all children can deal with combination vaccinations but we have no choice

and that choice is not easy to make when you have before ended up in hospital and doctors are concerned as to why they can not get your child's temperature under control

I also do believe that some children have gone on to have long term damage due to fits they have had after their vaccinations I believe their parents sadly they are not listened to because of all the hysteria around Andrew Wakefield

NobodyLivesHere · 17/12/2014 19:48

Personally, I chose not to vaccinate my son any further after his 2 month jabs landed him in hospital, I was told it was a one off, then his 3 month ones were even worse. So I took the decision to stop.

TheBogQueen · 17/12/2014 19:49

My cousins wife has not vaccinated her children because she wants everything "all natural"

You know, like smallpox Hmm

MollyHoHoHoHooper · 17/12/2014 19:51

I vaccinated both of my boys, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that all parents who do not are crazy conspiracy theorists.

It is an enormously personal thing, but these threads always go the same way and people get upset.

Notmymonkeys · 17/12/2014 19:53

My sister suffered long-term, serious and irreparable brain damage as a result of contracting a childhood illness.

That illness (meningitis) can now be prevented by vaccination.

Thank fucking Christ other families no longer have to go through what mine did.

hackmum · 17/12/2014 19:54

A minority of children do react very badly to vaccines - that's why the government has a Vaccine Damage Payments Unit that pays out compensation to a very small number of children and adults who have suffered extreme reactions that have been proven to be a result of the vaccine.

If you read anti-vaccine literature, they will cite plenty of cases of children who have suffered vaccine damage but were not believed by their GPs, who told them that it was just coincidence and the illness had nothing to do with the vaccine. Which may well be true, of course, but what it means - according to the anti-vax campaigners - is that the adverse effects don't get reported back via the yellow card scheme, and the extent of adverse effects is therefore not acknowledged.

The anti-vax campaigners will also say that if you look at the leaflet that comes with each vaccination, it gives a very long list of potential side effects.

I think there's a difference between people who had their children vaccinated and genuinely believe that their children suffered as a direct result of the vaccine, and those people who just think vaccines are bad because they're not natural, or full of chemicals, or whatever, because that is just muddied thinking.

My own view is that, although it's easy to see that vaccines have saved millions of lives, we shouldn't completely suspend our critical faculties. We know that almost every pharmaceutical medicine has side effects, so it would be odd if vaccines were completely safe. The problem is, though, that if people don't believe in the safety of vaccines, they will stop having their children vaccinated, which will have catastrophic consequences.

WittyUsername102 · 17/12/2014 19:55

TheBogQueen - I would like to add that despite the vaccine, DD2 still had rubella. So, I'm sure it's possible that children can still get smallpox even if vaccinated.