Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

[Discopanda]

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

But people are allowed to choose.

All my dc have been vaccinated.
A couple of weeks ago I had the first appointment with the ASD assessor, I mentioned the drug ds was on, and she point blank refused to say anything and said something along the lines of "If I had a pound for every parent who noticed changes following vaccination (or something else), I'd would have retired a long time ago"

So why is no-one listening to those parents?
I know one mother of a child with severe ASD who will not vax her other dc.
I know several parents who saw regressions immediately following vax, all approached their GPs, all were told they were being ridiculous.

On threads like this at some point someone usually says "the plural of anecdote is not data", but at some point all data, all research starts with anecdote.
No-one is saying that vaccination is dangerous for all children, no-one. But for a small minority, the debate remains open because there simply hasn't been the research to rule it out, so of course some people are scared.

I've often read that there's no way parents of regressed dc can remember exact details, so their story will not be reliable, but the parents I know do have reliable dates, some even have video footage, all went to their GPs within a week, so presumably the dates and changes will be in black and white, so no need to rely on a few memories.

The message from GPs re. vaccination often seems to be "vaccinate. Why? Because I said so". This will work for the majority of people, but some are more questioning.
More research needs to be done so that susceptible dc can be identified.

I have to say, before ds was put onto the drug he was on, I would read these threads and thing non-vaxers were bonkers, on a par with lizard people (sorry!)
Now, having had first hand experience of the total shutdown in communications that raising concern about my ds brought about, I am wary and distrustful about what we are told.
Pharmaceutical companies aren't exactly known for their consideration for the patients using their products. They are after £$€. GPs and Drs don't have the time to research every drug and vaccination that they use, so they refer to their drug manuals.
At the time my ds reacted to the drug he was on, the side effects weren't listed on the packaging, so the GP wouldn't believe it was happening and blamed parenting (because obviously it's a parenting issue when a child suddenly becomes extremely violent and suicidal over night ). I had to do my own research, which led to finding hundreds of other other parents going through the exact same thing, yet still no-one is interested.

But you did say that there is a camp who believe vaccines are invented by lizard people to enslave us all...

That took ages to write, and I see I've x-posted with a "big pharma is out to get us" comment!

Big pharma in my ds's case were proved to have rushed through the drug in a matter of weeks rather than several months, because they knew it was going to be such a money spinner - this isn't a theory, this is fact. Now the drug is being made generic rather than only under the brand it was originally made under, more info is on the leaflets, because the drug cannot make the money it once did.

Big pharma don't care about the people on the receiving end, they care about making money.
It doesn't take a giant leap to see that this could be happening with other drugs, but when the very people able to listen and take notes are shouting down the people who are trying desperately to share their experience, you can see how the information isn't getting out there.

and

Oh dishwasher - forgive my shorthand. I'm trying to encapsulate those people who don't vaccinate for ill thought out and woo reason - the woman who tried to get me to help Pagboy with crystals, the guy who told me 'whilst supposedly helping me with my knackered back' that I had caused pagboys autism because I hadn't placed my faith in Jesus Christ.

Anotherday - I'm pretty sure Gordy was joking.

If I should be feeling attacked let me know. I'm usually aware when people are posting to offend me. I think Gordy was trying to take the sting out of the brewing fight. As was I, albeit clumsily.

Pag, we've all caused our dc's problems somehow
I've ruined my ds by not disciplining properly, by not feeding him properly, by making up all his symptoms, by allowing him to be manipulative and revel in the power we've given him, by not making him go to bed early enough etc.
It's always the parent's fault :o

Hell yeah.
I shouldn't have been allowed to have children. My mil used to look at ds2 and say 'we have none of that on our side of the fsmily'

Me and my fucked up genes.

In fairness he has just started listening to Phil Collins and I find myself thinking 'how did I go so wrong' [sadface]

:o

I know I said "and finally" but I can't let Dishwasher's comments pass. All pharma companies and their staff are obliged to report every adverse event relating to their products - this is a legal obligation. And NHS doctors are supposed to do the same. Your doctor failed you and the rest of us if he/she failed to report an adverse reaction to something he/she prescribed to you.

Generic medicines may contain more information regarding side effects simply because by the time they go generic there has been at least ten years of reporting and more side effects have become known. If we waited for all the side effects to emerge before launching drugs there would never be any new drugs as their patents would have expired.

Pharma companies do care about patients. Some vaccines and treatments can be "rushed through" for a variety of reasons (eg bird flu, Ebola) but it is unusual. Annual flu vaccines are slightly different as the flu strains are different every year.

Our GP did eventually report it as an adverse reaction, but still doesn't believe it was/is. He thinks that ds is manipulative and has cleverly pulled the wool over our eyes.

In the case of singulair the length of the trial wasn't long enough to show the majority of adverse reactions (which take place between 6-12 weeks)
There was evidence (which typically now I can't find ) that shows that singulair was rushed through quickly and marketed very heavily.

Perhaps they do care about their patients, but I'd be willing to bet that they care about profits more.

The adverse reactions are relatively rare, but this still translates as possibly thousands of children affected.

diving from my post this morning (which centred on my assertion that whilst I'm pro-vac, I think we do give too many vaccinations at one time)

You replied that this isn't how immunology works.

Why not?

i also read the leaflet posted above which said the immune system can respond to lots of vaccinations at once.

I don't doubt this is true - but is it wise?

I am healthily cynical and I suspect the current vaccination schedule is as much about convenience all round, as anything else.

Yes, there probably isn't much evidence that multiple vaccines given at once cause any problems but I have found very few studies on the master. As mentioned, parents who assert vaccine damage are summarily dismissed.

I agree in principle with vaccination. But my instinct tells me that a young immune system should not have to build antibodies to three diseases at once. I prefer my instinct to glossy leaflets.

Ignore my post before, what I meant to say was that symptoms occur up to a year after starting singulair. The trials only ran for a few months so the results were skewed and didn't show the true extent of adverse reactions.

Sorry, I know this thread isn't about that so I'll shut up now :)

My 4 now grown up DC were first in the queue for every vaccine that came out. No question, didn't even think about it. I was a guinea pig for the original measles vaccine when I was a baby and the whole family has been very pro vax. I have had IBS since I was 17.

DC1 was allergic to egg and the GP refused to allow her the measles vax. The MMR came in a year or so later and again the GP said no. I think she eventually had it at 16. She caught chicken pox at 13 but has never had any other of the childhood diseases.

DC2 was ill for several months following his 9mth DTP jabs. He lost a lot of weight and despite being seen by various doctors nobody could ever tell me what was wrong. He was a big, healthy baby but ended up being a very tiny, thin little boy with severe dyspraxia, extreme long-sightedness, delayed puberty and other problems that are obvious as an adult but were never diagnosed. I can't prove it was the vaccine but it certainly coincides. He was one of the first batch of children to have the MMR when it came out, and has never had any of the illnesses except a very mild chickenpox.

DC3 has ADHD and also has bowel problems. He had the MMR at 13 months. He also caught both rubella and mumps before he went to school.

DC4 had the MMR at 13 months, and caught rubella before he went to school.

I was concerned about the earlier vax schedule when DC5 was born. She had the DTP shots but later than the schedule because I really wasn't comfortable with it. We saw Dr Halvorsen about the MMR and he agreed that with our family history he wouldn't be happy to have MMR. DD had the measles jab and will have rubella when she is a bit older. He recommended we have all the other jabs - Hib and Meningitis - so she has had all of those.

I remain very much pro vax but with reservations.

But isn't this noticing of symptoms immediately after the jab just related to the fact that that is the age the symptoms become noticeable?

I know someone said you'd have to be entirely stupid to have believed there was no risk from vaccines but I was pretty young when I had DS and hadn't really had any experience of serious medicine. The strongest thing I'd ever taken was the Pill. I had assumed vaccination to be 100% safe so to learn that it wasn't was suddenly a big shock/rock to my world if you like.

I think it seems less of a big deal when DC are older, because by then you've gone through all sorts of things where you have to put them at some level of risk in order for them to basically have any kind of life at all. I wouldn't think twice about vaccinating future children. But when you're twenty years old, had a carefree, worry free existence up until now, you have this tiny baby that you're supposed to keep safe and suddenly you get information that tells you "this decision isn't as clear cut as they say". It's easy to choose the best car seat or the best high chair, those things come with reviews and safety ratings. You haven't dealt with any behavioural issues yet. You don't send them off to school to fend for themselves yet. They can't even walk yet.

I think if there was clear information available like that "Parents you are being lied to" article where there are no whitewashes, no blase guarantees of perfect safety, no scaremongering, just facts, people would be less overwhelmed and more likely to make an informed decision. Faced with the facts, you can easily see that in most cases vaccination is advised but if there is any family history of issues, reactions, autoimmune disorders it might not be.

The problem is when both sides are lying or exaggerating, the anti-vaxers (at least to me) come across as more sane and balanced, which is totally ridiculous!

Bertie - the parents I know all reported a very sudden regression and loss of skills (talking/babbling, eye contact).

One person's experience was that her ds had the MMR late morning, by the evening he had a huge temperature which lasted a few days. When his temperature dropped they found that he no longer said Mummy and Daddy, he would no longer give eye contact at all.

Yes, this may be pure coincidence, but this is similar to the other parent's experience.
It wasn't that it was a time where they started to notice a lack of words, it was a short sharp shock, yet they have all been told that they are talking rubbish by the very people who should be reporting the parent's experiences.
In retrospect there may have been other little signs, but following the MMR there was a sudden regression.

I also know people whose dc with ASD have presented from birth.

I read recently that there are thousands of different types of ASD, some of them unique to individuals (if you've met one child with ASD, you've met one child with ASD). Perhaps some types aren't present at birth but need a trigger. I don't know.

Drs need to start listening to their patients though.

Bertie, the MMR was given at 18-20 months old when my dd was due hers. Apparently, when reactions were noticed, this was because 'that's the age symptoms become apparent'

It was then moved to be due at 15-18 months old. That was still when symptoms became apparent, whenever reactions were reported.

It is now given at around 13 months, I believe (haven't read a vaccine schedule in a few years though, so could be wrong). Reactions are noticed, and yep, that's the age whe they become noticeable, apparently.

So, either the 'age when sytoms become noticeable' is a load of bollocks, or the symptoms seem to become more apparent across a range of ages, just after MMR is given. Odd.

There is also documented reactions and regressions in older children so again, not 'the age' when symptoms become noticeable.

Quite apart from all that, if the MMR triggers a regression, then that is exactly what happens. One day a walking, talking,toilet trained child, interacting and playing for all they are worth. The next, an ill, incontinent child, losing speech, withdrawing into themselves. Not really something you could have missed before that point, really. Clearly, something happened to those children who went through that kind of a reaction.

My dd reacted to the MMR. She was clearly autistic before she had the jab, but she had no gut issues. Post MMR, she had a whole host of problems, and was unable to digest foods she had easily been digesting beforehand. She was about 22 months old, so was on proper solid food, 3 meals a day, rather than being just weaned. The damage to her gut took years to heal, and we had no help (or even acknowledgement ) at all. Whenever I tried to get my GP interested in helping a small child, clearly in great pain, who was unable to digest food, all he would say was 'oh yes, gut issues are common in autistic children'. What a help. Asthma is common in small children, but we don't ignore it and refuse to treat it.

I was also asked how I knew my non-verbal preschooler was in pain, since she couldn't talk. But at least he stopped asking nonsensical questions like that after I took infant dd2 to see him when she was ill (ear infection) and he accepted my word that she was in pain - instincts are ok from parents in relation to (presumed) NT children, but not allowed at all if your child has autism, you see - and I called him on his attitude.

Ah ok I didn't realise that. The temperature story is quite shocking :(

I agree that parents need to be listened to, and are often fobbed off.

The whole vaccine damage payout in Italy is a red herring. If you had any experience of the Italian legal system you would understand how those first instance judgements could not be seen as a precident for anything expect the whim of that particular judge.

OP best to do your own research. There are loads out there. There are loads of documentaries on dangers of vaccines.

Dr. Gary Nulls documentary is apparently won awards and silent epademic, untold story of vaccines.

The greater Good which has also won a lot of film awards last year.
“Bought” Exposes the Hidden Story Behind Vaccines, Pharma, and Food

It is better than getting info from here. As there are quite a few people who wont look into the dangers and call every anti-vaxers stupid, uneducated etc... when in fact a lot of intelligent people in the medical industry I know, dont vaccinate their kids at all.

National vaccine information centre, is a good place to go. This simply because you can pull up the vaccine inserts and it highlights the risks and other ingredients inside the vaccine for you. With facts put in front of your face, you can decide on if you want that vaccine or not.

I am in theory pro vaccination. DS1 had a reaction to his 2nd baby jab, the litterature the GP gave me said his next vaccination should be done by a paediatrician in hospital. GP said he was fine and told me not to bother. He had a reaction to his 3rd jab that almost required an ambulance. I still vaccinated his 3 younger siblings, but do I believe that reactions are treated appropriately and yellow carded? not in the slightest!

Nibledbyducks - yes it is shame our doctors arent reporting vaccine adverse reactions, because if they did, I guess they can no longer claim vaccine reactions are rare.

OP- I just came across this, and thought it would be of interest to you. Vaccines don’t work. Here are the facts
www.livingwhole.org/vaccines-dont-work-here-are-the-facts/

Fwiw I have not RTFT just skimmed some.

We do vaccinate, but on a delayed schedule under the advice of an immunologist who has done years of research. With an in depth monitoring of any reactions and space them out accordingly.

I personally know someone whose child is vaccine damaged. I'm not sure if they were awarded it but there is a vaccine damage compensation scheme in the UK. It may be rare... But if something "rare" happens to someone you know, it is very hard to be reassured that it cannot possibly happen/risk is so low etc that type of argument.

The GP was utterly bullying in her response to my concerns and told me there is no such thing as vaccine damage when I had seen the leaflet regarding it produced by the government and pulled it out of my bag and thrust it at her before walking out and changing GP. Had she acknowledged risks, and had a discussion on both sides I would not have felt (at the time in my new parent emotional state) that she had an agenda. This was later backed up when I learned that she gets a bonus if a certain percentage of kids in the surgery are vaccinated by them.

The only thing telling someone they are stupid, or worrying over nothing, or being irresponsible with their child does is serve to make them defensive and build up their arguments why you are wrong. At least IME

It was bizarrely what I guess is a "woo" practitioner who actually helped me come round to the idea - because they listened and didn't treat me like an idiot for daring to ask questions or voice concerns. Just a simple grown up conversation acknowledging that there are indeed REAL risks on both sides of the coin. I eventually moved on from using said "woo" practitioner to finding a qualified medical doctor who could have the same type of in depth discussion.

At the last jab we did the Dr told me "I'm actually really glad you did delay a bit because you halved his risk of asthma by doing so" and also has told me the Jabs are more effective with a slightly more mature immune system. I did take a risk delaying, don't know if I will take it with any future kids or not yet, and I'm grateful we have been ok.

Not advocating that anyone or everyone should delay, just pointing out that there are risks and benefits to both. It's up to each parent to weigh up which is the greater for their child.

There's a myth that vaccines are 100% effective or even work at all in every child. Fact is sometimes kids have vaccines that don't work at all. I honestly after seeing what happened with another child, cannot tell that mum she's wrong to not vaccinate her others... But I can cautiously choose to vaccinate mine if I feel the risk is worth taking.

I am glad that I eventually stopped reading anti vax propaganda but glad I haven't swung totally the other way either or could think my friend careless for not vaccinating again after her experience, sadly sitting somewhere in the middle I don't find much company though

Well, I think the fanatically pro-vaccination posters do not do their cause any good, here. All the people posting here who have come to question vaccinations are giving very coherent arguments, while the pros just call people loonies, and put out anti-vaccination arguments that they have supposedly heard by are not present in this thread.

My vaccinated my daughter but when she was pregnant with my dgd I started to investigate the pros and cons of vaccination and ended up in the anti-vaccination camp.

There are risks in everything one does in this world, but I do finding it extremely worrying the number of doctors cited on this thread alone, who put any possible reaction down to coincidence, for example.

I am in my sixties and all my generation had measles, mumps, rubella, etc. without my ever coming across anyone who suffered adverse effects. Obviously I know that they exist, and it would be interesting to see reliable statistics comparing the rare cases of children damaged by vaccines with the rare cases of children damaged by the diseases themselves.

The vaccine schedule in Mexico starts with hep-B at two days old. For the life of me I cannot understand why they have to vaccinate a two-day-old baby against a disease that is contracted through sexual contact or shared needles.

OP, you should start researching yourself and make up your own mind.
There is an anti-vaccine group called Arnica that you can find on facebook, they can be an interesting starting point.