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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

260 replies

Discopanda · 17/12/2014 18:16

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 11:42

it says you assumed the booster caused the sickness ...I have been up all night with 2 of my three puking - neither had a vaccine recently

of course it's your choice

SunnyBaudelaire · 18/12/2014 11:43

well i see what you mean, but if you bring a young child home from being vaxed and she promptly starts puking so violently that she is chucking up bile, what are you supposed to think?

SunnyBaudelaire · 18/12/2014 11:45

sidge I think she meant that the earlier jabs would have covered most children and the pre school booster was to 'mop up' those few that the latter would not have covered.

ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 11:47

Honestly? and not wanting to be an argumentative cowbag I would think it was an unfortunate coincidence - it sounds like gastroenteritis which would have been brewing before any vaccinations

I'm not aware of severe vomiting being a major symptom associated with the diseases in the pre school booster (but it may be - I'm not medically qualified)

SunnyBaudelaire · 18/12/2014 11:49

I know ghosty I know...the timing could have been unfortunate.
Bit odd though don't you think? when nobody else in the fam was puking and we all eat the same food?

SunnyBaudelaire · 18/12/2014 11:50

it wasnt like any other puking episode we have had...and we have had some!

stopgap · 18/12/2014 11:54

sleepywombat that's where we are as well. My son had horrendous colic and silent reflux for a year, and had a terrible reaction to his first set of vaccines. Fairly ordinary colic a day later became black stools, the most godawful screaming that lasted 24 hours etc. He is up to date on his vaccines but we almost went one by one after that. He's now 3.4 and we are also being assessed for ASD. DS2 is 11 months and up to date on his vaccines, but I am nervous about the process, given that he too had reflux as a baby, and the vaccines thus far have made his digestive woes return. I do notice that any virus or vaccine acutely affects DS1's autism/sensory symptoms. Preferable to serious illness, obviously, but it makes you wonder.

stopgap · 18/12/2014 11:56

Which is not to say I believe vaccines cause autismI don'tbut I do see how people believe that vaccines stir the pot in susceptible individuals with a family background of autoimmunity.

Pagwatch · 18/12/2014 12:48

Were vaccines not invented by lizard people then?

Grin
Chunderella · 18/12/2014 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

unlucky83 · 18/12/2014 13:07

Sunny My DD2 started puking after her 1 yr boosters (just Hib & Men C) - I know cos it was on her birthday and I ended up in A&E...
I phoned NHS 24 to see if there was a link - apparently there isn't but we still ended up in A&E because I (stupidly) said 'poor thing - its her birthday and she's had jags, puking and she bumped her head on a door earlier too'....they said head injury and vomiting she had to be seen ...(she had crawled into a door - standard toddler small bump and I did tell them but once you have been told to take them you can't really refuse) - A&E doctors didn't even bother waking her up...)
I think it was just a coincidence ...
The next time she puked was a few months later - a few hours after I had found her sucking on a salt cellar - NHS 24 told me to take her to A&E again and again the doctors didn't bother waking her up ...
(But I did get the call from the HV to explain exactly what happened -2 suspicious A&E visits in a few months!)
She isn't a vomitty child - she's probably only vomited 4-5 times in her life (now 7.5) - those two occasions and once at around 5 she ended up in A&E again because she had fallen backwards and cracked her head on a wall a few hours before ...she was kept in for a few hours -but again the vomiting was completed unrelated...
She's just really good at only getting a tummy bug when something has happened that makes you worry it could be related...

DishwasherDogs · 18/12/2014 13:10

Chunderella, I know this doesn't apply to vaccines but with the drug my ds was on, amongst people who suffered severe side effects there has been found (by accident) a weak brain/blood barrier in a few people, the few who have happened to have the right tests/scans.
We want there to be some research into this to find out if all sufferers have this in common, and whether it was caused by the drug or whether the side effects happen because of it.
I'd like to know if this is the case with ds, but there is no way our GP would refer him for the necessary tests.

With ASD there are all sorts of theories about leaky gut syndrome and many people see an improvement in behaviour when their dc go on a special diet.
I recently read a theory about autism linking it to mast cells (I don't know enough to quote anything, or understand it really!) and possibly a problem within the blood, but when you talk to anyone with medical knowledge about it (I have a few drs in my family who would be able to understand and explain to me), you might as well be saying that Elvis lives on the moon.

ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 13:19

yes sorry Pag ...although some children can develop a forked tongue after their MMR Grin

Pagwatch · 18/12/2014 13:26
Grin
specialsubject · 18/12/2014 13:37

fact - nothing is 100% safe and we will all die.
fact - there are risks with vaccines. There are risks with any medicine. You have to have total fresh air between your ears not to realise that.
fact- there are bigger risks from the diseases that vaccines prevent. Comment above also applies.
fact - these diseases are not just about death. Ever met a polio victim? Ever seen photos of the scarring caused by smallpox? There are people on here who have been damaged by the diseases.

a longer and better life is about making intelligent choices to minimise risk. Yes, if it is your child that is damaged by a vaccine, that is horrible - but if it is your child that is killed, paralysed, blinded or deafened that is also horrible.

and yes, if you don't vaccinate your kids, lay off the exotic holidays with them and make sure they KNOW before they go off on their gap year. If they are not able to be vaccinated (and there are valid reasons in some cases) then their travel is going to be restricted for their own safety and that of the people in the exotic countries. Fact.

ArgyMargy · 18/12/2014 13:45

Another difference between vaccines and other drugs is that you never get to see the packaging, or read the leaflet that contains all the side effects and interactions (you know, the one that lists constipation and diarrhoea side by side).

ArgyMargy · 18/12/2014 13:56

And finally. Medical sales people are prohibited from ever describing their products as "safe". This does not apply to NHS staff, who frequently tell patients that vaccines. & other drugs are "completely safe".

anotherdayanothersquabble · 18/12/2014 14:03

Argy, you can ask.... And you can view the vaccine insert on line before you have it done.

Ghost because you are interacting with Pagwatch you have conceded that she is not one of these raving loony parents who doesn't vaccinate because they believe they are invented by lizard people yet it is OK for you to be rude to the rest of the people who make that choice.

I have yet to meet a parent who choose not to vaccinate who has not read, researched, agonized, sought opinions, researched again and again and who does not know the details of all vaccinations offered, their ingredients and side effects, the risks of those diseases they are designed to prevent, how to recognise those diseases and how to treat them and where to get help if they do get ill. They do not expect herd immunity to protect their children, a common argument thrown out, but they do take 100% responsibility for the health of their child.

Opinion is divided and there are strong feelings on both sides. Mumsnet is a difficult forum to have this discussion as any questioning of the established medical practices regarding vaccines is met with such anomosity it is difficult to engage without feeling attacked.

We do not have full understanding of how the immune system works, cannot explain fully why some people develop autoimmune disorders and some do not, and why incidences of these diseases are rising. Until we do, we cannot say that injecting vaccines into the body bypassing the natural defenses of the skin, the nasal membranes and the gut categorically does not affect the immune systems of all people.

Idefix · 18/12/2014 14:08

argy you can always ask to read the leaflets beforehand or make an appointment to speak to a hcp to discuss the what the vaccines are for and what the risks are. Minimum, you should expect to have the leaflets tucked into front pocket of red book, post imms for your FYI. If this doesn't happen where you live raise this with the pm of your health centre - it is standard good practice.

In many years of giving imms I have never had reports of problems, other than localised reactions and the odd raise temps. For the majority of children they are very, very safe.
It is worth noting that in other European countries they have all the imms that we offer plus hep b and varicella with the same low level reporting of adverse events.

ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 14:11

I'm very sorry if I have been rude to you Anotherdayanothersquabble but I don't think I used the term 'raving loony'

I think most people research whether they choose to vaccinate or not - but some of the sources people use to make those choice are very suspect and not really based on actual science

ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 14:13

this is a very simple explanation of why I chose to vaccinate all my children

medium.com/the-nib/vaccines-work-here-are-the-facts-5de3d0f9ffd0

StockingFullOfCoal · 18/12/2014 14:30

I've just had someone on a FB group I know I know tell me that she doesn't want to vax "just because" Shock Despite the fact that her eldest children are vaxed and have had no reactions etc to it Hmm

WTF

Pagwatch · 18/12/2014 14:40

I don't think gordy was giving me a 'looney' waiver because I was interacting with her.
I assumed Gordy was drawing a line between those who have logical and well thought out reasons for being concerned rather than the 'big pharma is out to get us' emotional arguments.

ghostyslovesheep · 18/12/2014 14:45

exactly Pagwatch thank you