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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

260 replies

Discopanda · 17/12/2014 18:16

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

OP posts:
FastWindow · 17/12/2014 21:36

Wasn't there an outbreak of TB in Birmingham recently, directly linked to a huge non uptake of vaccinations a few years prior?

WooWooOwl · 17/12/2014 21:41

Very few parents choose not to vaccinate thankfully, and the arguments a parent uses to come to a decision where they don't vaccinate are going to be very varied and personal.

It is a choice that every parent has the right to make ultimately. I find it weird when posters don't seem to respect that basic thing in their determination that everyone should vaccinate.

HazleNutt · 17/12/2014 21:45

according to what I've read, people against vaccines (am not talking about medical reasons not to vax here) believe all or any of the following -

  • vaccines don't work
  • they weaken your immune system, healthy body won't get sick
  • diseases are not really so bad
  • it's all big government/pharma conspiracy to make us sick and then profit

FB "Things anti-vaxxers say" page is a scary place

BertieBotts · 17/12/2014 21:48

I did vaccinate my child. But late, because it took me a really long time to process all of the arguments, most of which I'd never been aware of before.

Overall, it was just such a big shock. I'd spent all my life believing that vaccines were never harmful and always 100% effective, that the diseases they protected from were always life threatening and terrible and then suddenly I came across this information which said that vaccines can harm or kill (and not the autism thing, which is what people always assume you are talking about, because that was never true, but there is such a thing as vaccine damage), vaccines aren't always effective, there are also figures which show that immunity was increasing anyway before vaccination, and that some of the diseases vaccination protects against used to be considered quite everyday.

I just found it really hard to take in and it paralysed me. Plus I swallowed all of the crap about it being hard on a baby's immune system to have so many vaccines at once (I no longer believe this) and decided it would be better to spread things out.

It wasn't due to herd immunity that I considered not vaccinating my child, that was never in the equation. And in the end I decided to not because I thought that vaccination was essential, but because I decided that these diseases are now much more rare and if my child did get measles or whatever then he'd be much more likely to end up in hospital having quite a traumatic experience about it rather than it just being like, say, chicken pox. Again, I've changed my view now, and would get future children vaccinated on schedule. But it's really hard when pro-vaccination arguments stick to this line of "Vaccination is 100% safe, 100% needed, 100% effective" and that just seemed implausible to me. I could see that anti-vaccination arguments thrived on scaremongering and some false information - one of the most common anti-vaccination things is to have them tell you to print out a form for the doctor/nurse to sign which personally held them responsible for any damage caused by the vaccine they were about to administer. The anti-vax argument is "No doctor will sign this. Now think about that!" - well, yeah, FFS of course no doctor is going to sign that! Are you going to ask a surgeon to sign saying they're personally responsible for you potentially dying during surgery as well? - but they still seemed to be telling more of the truth than the pro-vaccination side who seemed eager to convince you that everything is fine and scaremonger in the opposite direction. It's a really strange thing for that - with most other debates I've found, it's usually easier to find factual information on both sides whereas this is just a scaremongering food fight of an argument with both sides screaming and flinging shit at each other, like monkeys.

Overall I've come to the conclusion that vaccines, like any other medication, are of course never 100% safe or effective. But they are safe and effective enough to make them worth it. Against the potential dangers of disease, the risk balances. Vaccinating is safer than not vaccinating. But it took a really long time for me to come to that conclusion because of the just huge lack of decent information about it. This is the absolute best, balanced, non lying article I've read about vaccination, ever, and I recommend everyone should read it: Dear Parents, you are being lied to

whois · 17/12/2014 21:54

How do vacines cause autism?
howdovaccinescauseautism.com

We should all vaccinate so that we protect society as a whole unless you've got a bloody good reason which has been corroborated by at least two medical professionals.

if you've not vaccinated your child you better hope they don't grow up with a social concience and go and do aid work in a country where these diseases are more common!

BertieBotts · 17/12/2014 22:02

Also on the scaremongering front, the anti-vax group tend to talk about very current scaremongering things that parents of small babies and toddlers are worried about. Autism being one, but also cot death - because cot death peaks at 2 months of age, some anti-vaxers "have a theory" that it's linked to vaccination. I mean how low can you go? :( At that stage of parenting, cot death is a million times more scary than some vague notion of a disease that they might get when they are older and might recover from anyway.

It doesn't help at the time to know that cot death is vanishingly rare and hence extremely unlikely, that most cases occur when risky sleeping practices are in place such as unsafe bedsharing. Or that you are fifteen times more likely to suffer a stillbirth than for your baby to die of cot death. Nope, somebody says "Vaccines might be linked to cot death" and parents will panic, even though it's no more than a correlation.

It's easier to look back and be objective when your child is older but at the time it feels like a horrible decision that you can't possibly get right (Oh, welcome to parenthood I guess Grin)

ArgyMargy · 17/12/2014 22:37

No vaccine is 100% safe
No vaccine is 100% effective
FastWindow - that is rubbish re: TB in Birmingham. TB vaccination is only now offered to only a very small number of children in specific high risk areas of the country. TB has been on the increase in Birmingham largely associated with migrant populations and overcrowded housing.

Anyway all that fuss about measles outbreak in South Wales a few years ago. No-one died.

unlucky83 · 17/12/2014 22:57

fast as argy said TB is no longer being a routine vaccination - it is given only to babies who are considered to be high risk - ones who live in certain areas in the UK or who have grandparents/parents who were born in high risk countries (ones without a long standing vaccination program.)
I think it is a scandal...brought in by the last labour government (2005 IIRC) because TB in this country is now rare (probably due to the long standing vaccination policy) -the high risk areas are those with a higher risk of TB - mainly due to immigration from high incidence countries.
The policy fails to take into account that people move around the UK. And also global travel. (You do need to be in close contact with an infected person to catch it - maybe like when I shared a small office in a 'safe' area of the UK with someone from a high risk country...or if you have a relationship from someone from a high risk area in the UK). And emerging antibiotic resistant strains
If you visit certain countries you will be offered it as a travel vaccine...but it isn't a very effective vaccine anyway ...and the younger you are when you are given with it the more effective it seems to be....

NobodyLivesHere · 17/12/2014 22:59

One person did die during the measles 'epidemic' in Swansea. He had been vaccinated.

BertieBotts · 17/12/2014 22:59

That kind of thing is what I meant by the fact that scaremongering/exaggerated info is shared by pro-vaxxers too.

It's such a shame because it reduces the debate to who can find the most emotional argument, and the anti-vaxxers (In my experience) tend to win that one.

ArgyMargy · 17/12/2014 23:28

I find it odd that people get all shouty about vaccinations and yet 20% of year 6 children are now obese. Obesity causes 80-90% of type 2 diabetes and the complications of that disease are just as scary as for the childhood diseases. Blindness, kidney failure, foot amputations, heart attacks, strokes.

ArgyMargy · 17/12/2014 23:29

And people are still happy to let their children ride bikes without helmets, ride in cars without proper restraints, be in rooms where people are smoking... But always get the jabs.

Mousefinkle · 17/12/2014 23:37

My nan refused to vaccinate my dad and uncle because of 'religious reasons', shes Catholic. She also tried really hard to stop my mum vaccinating me as a child, my mum told her where to go. She did manage to put my cousin's mother off getting them vaccinated though, she was quite eager to please my GM, not as strong willed as my mum...

Weirdly my nan now happily has the flu jab every year and told me I should give my DC it so apparently she's changed her views, or maybe the Catholic Church has Hmm.

Some people think the vaccinations are evil, filled with brain controlling toxins, they're tested on animals etc. I think they're morons. Also the autism thing was debunked years ago but even so would I rather have a child with autism or no child at all? Yeah, I know which I'd choose.

bruffin · 17/12/2014 23:38

Nobody
Gareth Colfer Williams who died of measles was not vaccinated

ghostyslovesheep · 17/12/2014 23:40

wow Argy massively illogical argument there Grin

oh and non of those things apply to any of my vaccinated children - hth x

Andro · 17/12/2014 23:45

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid - in truth I doubt it would. The decision we took to not complete our son's vaccinations was incredibly difficult and it was not taken lightly. Once he is old enough to start making his own mind up we will explain the decisions we made (he knows what happened to his sister already) and let him choose whether to complete the program or not.

Should he decide to go ahead, we'll arrange to him to have them at hospital as a precaution.

LongDistanceLove · 17/12/2014 23:45

Not really argy people will quite happily see their kids get fatter and fatter, but you can't mention it...

ghostyslovesheep · 17/12/2014 23:50

it's an odd argument 'people shouldn't vaccinate their children against preventable and potentially deadly diseases because they let them get fat or generally don't care about them being in a car crash or bike accident' but it doesn't really work Grin

if you want them to stop getting fat and wear bike helmets surely you also want them not to die of meningitis?

stopgap · 18/12/2014 00:09

At the risk of sounding idiotic, can I ask a question? In families rife with autoimmunity, is there a risk that vaccines trigger, if not autism, then an abnormal and potentially dangerous immune response? I know that whenever I get a vaccine, I also get an immune flare. Not life-threatening, no, but what do studies indicate? Is it a coincidental thing?

TopazRocks · 18/12/2014 00:10

I thought the thread title meant not using a vax as in not using a toilet brush. GrinYears of having certain friends (DH calls them my 'hippie friends') explaining their, ahem, rationale has me so confused by the arguments, I have nothing more to say on this. And it's bedtime. Smile

sleepdodger · 18/12/2014 00:42

Given my friends son has a very serious case of measles I. Spite if having the vac i have no idea why you wouldn't vaccinate. If he hadn't had it he would be in isolation in hospital. Scary stuff!

NobodyLivesHere · 18/12/2014 01:43

Bruffin- I apologise for my error, that'll teach me to read the Evening Post I guess!

ralgex · 18/12/2014 03:56

stopgap, yes, there is a risk; it's acknowledged by the medical world.

sashh · 18/12/2014 05:10

I watched a perfectly healthy child have an allergic reaction so severe it caused her to go into cardiac arrest, it happened within minutes of her being vaccinated. It is rare, thankfully it's very rare, but I now have to work from the basis of knowing it happened.

But surely if a reaction to a vaccine is so strong the reaction tot he disease could be too? Would the disease cause an arrest?

Also some children react badly to food, just because someone else's child goes blue and stops breathing because they have a peanut does that mean your child shouldn't have a piece of toast in case they react.

sleepywombat · 18/12/2014 06:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.