Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can somebody please explain the anti-vax argument to me?!

260 replies

Discopanda · 17/12/2014 18:16

I keep stumbling across vaccinating vs anti-vax arguments on FB parenting pages but I'm still not getting why people are choosing not to vaccinate their children. I thought the whole autism thing was discredited and that was only referring to the combined MMR. It's obviously a very sensitive subject among mums but I feel really ignorant not knowing the other side of the argument.

OP posts:
fluffling · 17/12/2014 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MollyHoHoHoHooper · 17/12/2014 19:58

Brilliant post, hackmum.

Pico2 · 17/12/2014 19:58

There is an innate human tendency to see coincidence as causation. It is a useful trait in evolutionary terms, but does seem to come out when people vaccinate. For example DD had the flu vaccine and then got a cold. That doesn't mean that the flu vaccine contributed in any way to her having a cold, particularly since colds are extremely common at this time of year and they are different illnesses. But plenty of people would make a link. Genuine side effects are rare.

unlucky83 · 17/12/2014 19:59

witty noone is vaccinated against small pox now -because it doesn't 'exist' anymore (except in secure lab storage). It has been eradicated due to the world wide vaccination programme...

bruffin · 17/12/2014 20:00

Freudian my ds 19 had a condition called GEFS+ which is an abnormal amount of fits at an abnormal age. He had 20 odd fits and the last (and final one hopefully) was at 13 years old.

There was research that showed what they thought was fits that were seen as a vaccine damage were actually Dravets disease which is more extreme condition of what my son has. Any temperature would have caused the fits and the subsequent developmental problems, not just those from a vaccine. FWIW my ds despite having all those fits never had one as a result of vaccines, just from flu, ear infections or tonsillitis. The risk of a fit from measles is far greater than the risk of a fit from the vaccine.

WittyUsername102 · 17/12/2014 20:06

unlucky83 - I'm aware of that. By smallpox, I was referring to 'any' deadly diseases as I believe the person I was replying to also was, with the use of the world 'like'.

Boobsofsteel · 17/12/2014 20:10

Anti-vaxers are the ultimate in soiled first world brats.

Ask anyone in the developing world if they would enjoy the luxury of turning down life saving medications

Boobsofsteel · 17/12/2014 20:11

*spoiled

Dammit ruined my own rant with poor spellingHmm

ClimbingFramePlanningEnquiry · 17/12/2014 20:13

I have a vaccine damaged child.

Up until that point, I never questioned the vaccination programme. I popped along for all appointments, and had had all my jabs (and boosters - how many posters on this thread are completely sure they are as up to date as possible with all possible vaccines?).

And then the very system which was supposed to be humdrum and mundane, so very ordinary, changed unlike and,more importantly, my child's life, forever.

Oddly enough, I have younger children who are not vaccinated. Can't think why Hmm

Andro · 17/12/2014 20:14

Bulbasaur I watched a perfectly healthy child have an allergic reaction so severe it caused her to go into cardiac arrest, it happened within minutes of her being vaccinated. It is rare, thankfully it's very rare, but I now have to work from the basis of knowing it happened.

As pro vax as I am, as much of a scientist as I am, however thoroughly I know that the odds are against the same thing happening, it's not a risk I can force myself to take - none of which means that I don't value his life!

bruffin · 17/12/2014 20:19

previous link was wrong

Pico2 · 17/12/2014 20:21

I think that generationally we have lost touch with what the diseases we vaccinate actually can do. So the risks of those diseases don't seem very real. I know two people who have had life-long damage from polio, but I don't know any other people who have had problems from other preventable diseases, either because they have been vaccinated or aren't of my generation and don't speak about it.

Bonbonbonbon · 17/12/2014 20:23

I am very much pro-vaccination for every child who is able to get them.

I want to respond to the pp who mentioned a study that concluded that non-vaccinated children appeared healthier than vaccinated children. The county in the USA with the lowest number of vaccinated children is Marin County, California, just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco. Marin County is also one of the most affluent counties in America.

The non-vaccinating parents in Marin are taking advantage of their wealth and privilege. They live in an area with high access to fresh fruit and veg year round, an excellent Mediterranean climate, surrounded by sea and mountains, unparalleled access to outdoor pursuits. Basically you will not find healthier-eating, more physically active, more chilled out people anywhere in the country.

If you had the same levels of non-vaccinated kids in a less privileged area, or highly urbanized area, I doubt that study would hold. A vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study of children that took into account economic status, education level of parents, access to healthy food, and level of physical activity, would paint a much different picture.

Choosing not to vaccinate your children (as opposed to not being able to for legitimate medical reasons) is an exercise in privilege. I believe we are privileged to be living in a place where vaccines are available and affordable, and feel we cannot afford not to vaccinate.

HowsTheSerenity · 17/12/2014 20:23

Hop onto Facebook.
Find 'things anti vaxers say'
Enjoy the craziness.

LeBearPolar · 17/12/2014 20:33

Excellent point, Pico2

I wonder if those who choose not to vaccinate really understand what it would mean for smallpox, polio, diptheria to become common again? Or just how dangerous measles can be?

trilbydoll · 17/12/2014 20:51

DD is vaccinated, and I have no scientific knowledge to back up doing anything else but I must admit my gut instinct is that the combination vaccine programme at 8, 12, 16 weeks is an awful lot for a tiny system to handle. If a single mumps vaccine had been available I would have not given DD the MMR. I am pro-vac but would infinitely prefer single vaccines or at least only one jab at a time.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 17/12/2014 20:53

I watched a perfectly healthy child have an allergic reaction so severe it caused her to go into cardiac arrest, it happened within minutes of her being vaccinated. It is rare, thankfully it's very rare, but I now have to work from the basis of knowing it happened.

As pro vax as I am, as much of a scientist as I am, however thoroughly I know that the odds are against the same thing happening, it's not a risk I can force myself to take - none of which means that I don't value his life!

andro if you had seen a patient die of measles or damaged by polio do you think it would alter your opinion.

skylark2 · 17/12/2014 20:55

For some kids with particular medical conditions or family histories, the risks from vaccinations are greater than the risks from the illnesses the vaccinations would protect against.

For most kids, it's much safer to be vaccinated.

Pagwatch · 17/12/2014 21:03

I haven't vaccinated my DD because of a family history of damaging reactions to vaccination. My GP and DDs consultant completely concur.

Sometimes people who don't vaccinate are not 'anti-vax', nor are they idiots or entitled or any other shite.

Thurlow · 17/12/2014 21:04

I think it's understandable why parents who have a reason to believe that their child might react badly to a vaccine, whether because of allergies or family history, might make the decision not to vaccinate. And my sympathies go out to those whose children have reacted badly to the vaccines.

The thing with reactions, though, is that anyone could have a terrible reaction to pretty much every single legal and standard pharmaceutical drug on the market. The first time you give your baby paracetamol, the first time you give them ibuprofen, the first time you give them penicillin - you don't know if they are going to have a terrible reaction to it. Just the same as you don't know if they are going to have a terrible reaction to strawberries or to shellfish.

As a parent you make decisions based on the risk. There is a risk involved in almost everything in life that you do. For me, personally, and I imagine for the majority of parents, the risk - currently scientifically unproven - of a bad reaction to a vaccine is much, much smaller than the risk of harm from catching measles.

One thing I do struggle to understand is why parents who think that the vaccine has such possibility to do harm think that the government continue with the program. Hack is spot on to say we shouldn't suspend our critical facilities. But I don't see a huge amount for anyone to gain from these sort of conspiracy cover ups.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 17/12/2014 21:16

Great post thurlow

anotherdayanothersquabble · 17/12/2014 21:19

I do not believe that the majority of parents who research vaccinations and decide not to vaccinate, rely on herd immunity to protect their children.

They research the diseases that they are choosing not to vaccinate against, understand how the diseases present themselves, how the diseases are treated and find health professionals that will support them and their families should their children become ill.

Ionacat · 17/12/2014 21:22

There is a difference between being anti-vaccination and those that can't have immunisations due to allergies, reactions etc. We need herd immunity precisely because of those people who can't have those vaccinations, they rely on everyone else to have those vaccinations. My parents' generation pretty much all of them know people who had polio damage or measles damage. I don't know anyone who has even had measles. Most anti-vaccination literature seems to come from a lack of understanding of how the immune system works.
I was reading the history of anti-vaccinations, it has been around since vaccinations were invented. They thought it was sorcery and witchcraft to start with. And as for the hygiene preventing the spread of diseases, did people in the 1950s not wash their hands?

Pagwatch · 17/12/2014 21:27

I had measles. And mumps

Mammanat222 · 17/12/2014 21:29

Whatever your stance can we please make sure 'pro vax' or ' anti vax' do not make it into everyday lexicon... I beg of you all.

Same with sanpro.

As you were!