To ask if you don't do Santa/ Elf in the shelf you don't spoil it for others?

[CatWreathkeith]

Last year Dneice was told matter of factly by a 4yo at school there is no such thing as Father Christmas and it's your parents. In reception.

This year another child has told her that you can buy an EOTS from Amazon, because her mum has shown her it.

Why? Why would you do that? Why not say there are only a few elves that get to leave the North Pole and we didn't get one?

Or if your child wants one that badly get a cheap one from the pound shop

Grrr

No fallingover parents can not be at school to monitor every word that comes out of their children's mouths so the parents who choose to do Santa have to have strategies to deal with the consequences of other children telling their precious offspring that the fat man in the red suit is all imaginary. You cannot expect people to tell their children to lie to appease others.
5 year olds take great pride in figuring out that Santa isn't real before their friends have figured it out.

How? Don't particularly want to get into the discussion, but how on earth would you police everything a 5 year old says. Other than 'we don't spoil it for other people' and 'people have different beliefs' what on earth are you meant to do?

x post. Yes agree with inthedark, if you do do the father christmas thing, then you need to think of what you'll say/do when your child questions it, usually prompted by an external influence eg friend, film, book.

Maybe other people can stop telling my children that they won't get Christmas presents if they're naughty?

This is the bit I hate about the whole FC thing. If you don't get lots and lots of presents it's because you are bad.

Good people have things, bad people don't. Not really in the spirit of Christmas is it?

I didn't say you had to lie. I said you had to ensure that your choice to tell your 5 year old the truth about Santa came with a responsibility to ensure he doesn't ruin it for other people's small children. If you have strategies for this, then that's fine. But you seemed to misunderstand my original post. I made it clear the onus was on the parents, not the child so didn't understand your tee hee response.

I suspect that the history of Santa as we know him now in the UK doesn't go back that far - I think a lot of it is Victorian with embellishments from Hollywood. Christmas just wasn't that big a deal for many people - bit difficult to get excited about Santa when most people don't have the resources to exchange anything but the most simple present, and children's toys weren't widely bought until well into the twentieth century.

Christmas day wasn't a public holiday in Scotland till the fifties.

Having said that, I love Polar Express and 'The Night Before Christmas' and tracking Santa (even though my children don't believe) - but it's really just a game of make believe and shouldn't be blown out of proportion.

'Goodwill to all men people' is the magic of Christmas.

I didn't misunderstand your post. What you seem to not realise is that a lot of 5 year olds who don't believe in Santa have been told by older children that he doesn't exist, you can't blame the parents for that and say 'your choice comes with a responsibility', because it wasn't a choice in lots of cases. Most rational parents accept that Santa can't be kept a secret forever and they deal with the inevitable when it happens and don't resort to blaming the parents of the child who has boldly told their child that he is a big fat fake.

We have an elf. DH Our nearly three year old loves it so far. But, we don't do any of the "reporting" stuff. I wouldn't be that upset if Dd didn't believe it was magic. I'm pretty sure she doesn't in fact because this morning she asked me where I was going to put it tomorrow. It's still fun.

Santa might be a relatively new import, with major Victorian boost.

But Father Christmas is proper old English tradition stretching back centuries and with (pagan) roots as the Green Man.

Santa Claus is a corruption of St Nicholas who has for centuries been associated with Christmas and the giving of gifts to children albeit not the expensive piles of stuff they receive nowadays.
I think the whole thing was Americanised sometime during the last century and St Nicholas became a white bearded man in a red suit.

Sorry x post Meditrina.

And my tee hee response was related to the fact that you think parents have the ability to police their children's spreading of the news that Santa isn't real when the parents are not at school full time. As I said, kids relish in the fact that 'I am grown up enough and sensible enough to realise that Santa isn't real and you lot are all less sensible'. It's one of the basic rules of childhood; mum tells me not to spoil other people's fun but I just can't help myself from telling them all that everybody over the age of 2 months is sensible enough to realise that Santa isn't real.

Older children darker who don't believe in Santa Claus are usually at an age where they can be more or less trusted to keep it secret from younger children. Yes of course children are going to hear in school at some stage that Santa isn't real and gradually they come to realise it for themselves.

But very small children telling other very small children that Santa doesn't exist means that process is starting very early planting doubts in children's minds from a young age.

Inthedark I meant and your last post sounds quite unpleasant. I've made my views clear and don't wish to debate it with you any further after that last comment.

I overheard a conversation on the way to school the other morning where a boy (7ish) was asking his mum so many questions about the EOTS. Bless her she had an answer for everything but it just reconfirmed my decision to not add any more labour intensive bullshit to Christmas.

Because that's what all of this does doesn't it? Create work at a time when the last thing we need is more stuff to do.

The problem with Santa and the elf is it is actually about the presents at the end. The elf monitors behaviour and getting the present is dependent on good behaviour. It's a capitalist construct to keep us buying.

Imagine we all decided to tell the truth, there is no Santa, we won't be buying presents and we'll make Christmas all about family. Even the food is out of hand. You could have any meal really. We're just conditioned to spend loads of money.

Yes, I know I'm a miserable bastard

some of the parents at my little boy's school quite definitely blame me and he hasn't even said anything about it all - I've had threats about what they'll do if he tells their kids!

they're idiots.

But some children just do have doubts. I vividly remember having a comic read to me about someone dressing up as FC and realising that of course he's not 'real'.

I was three.

I told my twin sister (ditto the tooth fairy) who still believed for many years.

Honestly. Holding a "very small child" responsible for "planting doubts in other children's minds from a very young age" is bonkers.

Yes, traditionally St Nicholas puts sweets in children's shoes on 6th December. However, this has never really been a British tradition.

We have Father Christmas, who was more about getting pissed and living it large. The puritans didn't really approve of him, and he has come in and out of favour. The Scottish presbytarians really weren't that keen on him - and the big midwinter celebration in Scotland has been Hogmany. Yes he is probably based on the idea of the 'Green Man', who may have been based on earlier Gods, but I think that is getting quite far away from Santa and Rudolph.

Father Christmas and Santa were merged by the Victorians and the current concept of Christmas evolved in the second half of the twentieth century.

I really, really don't think that children of my grandparents generation were that bothered either way about Santa Claus, and children of my great grandparents generation would probably be a bit confused. (Particularly as some of my great grandparents were quite hard line Scottish presbytarians, and others would have probably been more interested in getting something to eat and a warm bed on Christmas Day).

I am now proud to live in a society where I have no idea what the personal beliefs or traditions of any person might be. I have no wish for my children to tell anybody that their beliefs are a load of rubbish as that is just rude. However the idea that there is some truth/secret about Santa Claus that we all have decide to tell/not tell to our children and then swear them to secrecy and that this is a foundational part of British society is really a bit far fetched.

My 4 year old might tell your 4 year old that there is no Santa, and he might also say that his dad is an astronaut. In both situations you can say "really?" and get on with your day.

Getting cross with me for ruining your child's Christmas would be just plain silly.

Inthedark I meant and your last post sounds quite unpleasant. I've made my views clear and don't wish to debate it with you any further after that last comment.

Nothing unpleasant about your tone . Your views are obviously gospel and anybody who dares disagree is apparently unpleasant, okaaaay !

Elf on the chuffing shelf? Well I never. So you have to do something with it EVERY SINGLE DAY until Christmas?

It has been widely reported that gifted children question Santa at a very young age. It isn't unusual for a gifted child to question Santa from the age of 3. Anybody want to tell me how you can expect a three year old to keep santas fakeness a secret?

Is that what's known as a 'not so stealth' brag?

'My child is gifted and doesn't believe in Santa as opposed to the plodders who blindly believe what their parents tell them'.

Not a stealth boast. I already said (earlier) that my child was told by another child at school.

[penny drops, I was reading that as children who receive gifts question where they came from…]