to think that burlesque is not 'empowering'

[bauhausfan]

...but just women having been brainwashed into thinking that being sexy (ie fitting into that male stereotype of frilly undies, sexual availability, coyness etc) is their choice when actually it is just brain washing by the patriarchy. Just like breast implants -'I'm doing it for myself' - well, no, you're not. You're doing it so you can feel happier because you now fit society's pre-conceived idea of sexy/attractive.

I feel really depressed by the number of intelligent women I know who are buying into this bullshit. If I'm going to celebrate feminine power, I'd rather it was through women who have worked their way into the top echelons of society - not someone called Kitty or Dita waving their baps around. I feel despair - what happened to the 70s feminist dream?

heliumbalonz that class sounds absolutely amazing.

Today I was watching some TV with my husband. The adverts came on and I was joking around with him about why some woman had to look sexy to sell roll on and wink at the camera. The next three adverts all had sexy beautiful women in them. I asked when I would get a sexy man to look at! I didn't get one. Next advert break, the same.

I see very few adverts that have sexy men in them. Every film I watch always seems to have at least one half naked woman in it which isn't relevant to the story line. Men are sexualised, but not even half as much as women.

I don't think burlesque dancing is empowering but I think some of the comments are pretty mean and put women down, which I thought feminists were against doing.

Are you quoting me, Fafoutis?
I couldn't possibly explain, I'd have to show you.
< witty, see.

Not quoting you perplexed, just something I have heard a lot and don't understand. Describe what you would show me.

There's a completely spurious argument going on here, I don't believe anyone ever claimed burlesque empowered all women, individuals have claimed it made them feel empowered. Whether that empowerment comes from building their confidence, changing their body image or is purely monetary doesn't matter, the feeling is perfectly valid. Insulting those people or dismissing how they feel, or calling them brain washed doesn't change the validity of those feelings either.

It's difficult to explain,like when you go and see stand up and then you tell your friends the jokes and they're .
The idea is that you are telling a little story, you aren't just dancing around or taking your clothes off.
Twists and revealing the unexpected (not just boobs) are big.
Physical comedy, bordering slightly on slapstick I suppose, is used sometimes. It's adding that extra layer, if you like.
It's very subjective and abstract, as indeed is attempting to despite the concept of wit, but we all know it when we see it.

What I meant by having power over my husband when I did a private burlesque show for him was that I had him eating out if the palm of my hand, all eyes on me, happy as a pig in shit whatever version of the above. Made me feel pretty powerful in the context I am not really sure why others would want to knock that experience bizarre.

Thanks perplexed, I see. I have met performers but haven't really understood what they do, or felt it was polite to ask!

My lovely friend wrote a book about burlesque & feminism if anyone is interested : www.amazon.co.uk/The-Happy-Stripper-Pleasures-Burlesque/dp/1845113187

I do pole fitness. Not in heels. Not sexual at all, I'm covered in bruises and pour with sweat
Quite honestly I couldn't give a shit what people think about it, it's made a massive difference to my core strength and I bloody love it
I like it because it makes me feel incredible that I can hold my entire body weight upside down from my arms, or one leg. It's fun, we laugh a lot and it's a huge achievement and celebration to get a new move
I also do spin and lift weights, and it all works well together
Someone wants to do burlesque, cool. Not my monkeys, not my business to judge anyone and quite frankly I don't have the time or head space to worry about what other people do with their life choices

You were mocked anothernumberone because your opinion clashes with theirs and that's not allowed.

They've all been on complaining about women's portrayal in the media but calling burlesque "stripping for fat goths" is acceptable it seems.

Exciting your husband is lovely another, but it's just a normal sexual relationship, it's not empowering, surely? Not knocking it, but it's nothing to do with power.

oh anothernumberone how naieve if you think that means you have power over him- lots of women in porn films must have power of men if thats the case..ffs empowerment means a man wanting to fuck you? Dear god I despiar

I think that anothernumberone is talking about a feeling of inner power, which can be energising and enjoyable.

As far as I know, that is very distinct from having power over someone - how sharonthewaspandthewineywall and MyEmpireOfDirt can fail to distinguish this in the conversation above gives me some cause for despair.

YANBU. Can't stand it, for a number of reasons. I always think its a sort of maternal look, but I'm put off by any links to stripping, forced "sexiness", etc. I basically just find it really uncool - a bit like how people try to promote say wearing a headscarf as cool and trendy and all the time I'm thinking its basically something my granny wore.

I dont think burlesque is 'empowering' to women as a whole, but it may be to individuals who have found their body shape more celebrated in that medium than in the current 'ideal' we have shoved down our throats these days. I think the trendy sets fascination with burlesque is that yes it celebrates differing body shapes but, more importantly , unlike todays idea of sexuality and stripping, its more about the tease and the performance than the whip it all straight off and grind in your face stripping we see now. Its a huge novelty to a generation bored of our more overt, get it all straight out, shove it in your face sexuality. I find it a 'Carry On Film', saucy but not dirty, old retro seaside postcard sexuality.

I have friends on the fringes of the adult industry (phone sex and webcam) both had low paid jobs in supermarkets where they felt demeaned & trapped. Both are now able to study to improve their lives by doing flexible hours for better pay. Both say they now feel 'in charge and that i now have a future I am working towards'. Both would have no problem carrying on with the webcam and phone chat in the unlikely possiblility they failed their degrees (psychology & engineering. The webcam one doesnt spend all her time naked, only if she chooses, most of her callers want flirting/ a bit of tease and company, not sex acts. A lot of them are really lonely & she is the only person they speak to socially for months on end. The phone chat friend says the same, 40% of her calls are very lonely men who want a chat not a talk dirty to me session.

I also saw a channel 4 documentary admittedly a while back on the phenomenen of more & more middle class graduates ending up as escorts as like the book Belle du Jour, the low paid telesales & retail jobs they got once they got their degrees turned out to be minimum wage, depressing & demeaning. I think Brooke from Belle du Jour did around 6 different low paid jobs after graduation before escorting, then eventually got her dream job in genetics: after a good few years earning a fortune at the high end escorting , not as a pimped , exploited victim which i recognise are the majority.

Women do get judged on appearance, sad but true, men are visual (its something to do with ancient programmed signals re fertility & body shape/survival of the fittest of the species) and yes, sex sells and advertising is still very male dominated. Tho to me its heartening that the 'sex sells' approach of TV advertisers has recently been replaced with a wave of funny/cute animal ads (far more attractive to me and more likely to get me to remember the product as well).

To those who say men arent judged on appearance or sexualised, they should watch a few music videos with bare chested male models/lead singers , note all the magazines re. men's fitness with six pack male models on the cover, look at Dave Gandy & David Beckham's underwear shoots: and take a trip to London, its like a male catwalk - tho being ancient i find that gym body, fixed teeth, fake tanned, over groomed look a turn off to be honest.

myempire, I'm glad you condemn the comment re:fat goths, that's two of us then.

Power has a definition, as does empower. Using either of them about this stuff is a misuse of the words.

Isn't this more than a little bit pedantic?

I will be checking that book out FaFoutis, thanks for the link.
I find this discussion really interesting and I think it covers a great deal of how women are represented and represent themselves.

i find it laughable that the op claims to be a feminist yet chooses to ridicule and insult another woman for using her hard won right to choose to do something that makes her happy

Twizzle the name-callers soon disappeared in the face of a perfectly grown up and civil exchange of views.
Give them no mind.