Not aibu but absolutely gutted about the mother and her baby found dead

[Goodmum1234]

I didn't know her but having only given birth ten weeks ago myself and now seeing her photo on the news I am devastated for her, her baby and her family ?? having had severe pnd four years ago I can see how things can go so wrong if no one knows how you feel and intervenes. RIP x

ral glad you have a good HV. Mine were wonderful and gave me so much help and support. It's years ago now but I'll ll never forget them.

I'm glad you complained about her - and it was upheld - someone like that shouldn't be working as a midwife.

massively tragic, and also noted that many of the newspapers reported that a baby had been found, with the mothers body being a mere sideline/detail

I never did have SS intervention but DH is a SAHD so that might be why. It was incredibly difficult to go back to work so early but I was worried about the impact of my illness on my abilities as a mother. In the end, I shouldn't have stressed so much. I found being with my daughter was and still is the best medication I could have had :) I wonder how many other women out there are in the same boat. DH and I are swapping places in the new year and I get to spend some more time with my baby again. There is such bad advice out there, I just don't get it sometimes.

It depends on where you live as to what treatment you have access to when pg with a mental health condition. I guess you weren't referred as they didn't see a need to. So a good thing?

This sad event has really knocked me, although I didn't know her, I feel so sorry for all concerned.

My step son has been suffering from mental illness for a couple years now, although it was very hard to get him help at first the help he did get at the beginning was very good. He suffers with psychosis and possible schizophrenia, he has been in and out of hospitals, has attempted to self medicate and has tried to take his life several times. At the end of the summer he was sectioned after trying to take his life, due to the closure of many units and beds there was no where local to send him, he was sectioned and taken 100's of miles away ( we are about as South as you can get, he was sent up mort ), he was scared ,I'll and we could not be near him. After a month they found him a bed closer to home and then he was released with hardly any support to manage by himself. Since then he has had many episodes but due to lack of beds instead of sectioning him they sedate him so he can barely function, they then leave him on his own in his flat and check on him 48 hours later. We feel he ( and many others ) are being seriously let down, we are waiting for the dreaded knock at the door to say he has taken his life . Seeing a family member like this and not getting the help they need is very painful.

What ever support this poor woman was or was not getting was not enough, my heart goes out to her family.

I am so so sad about this too.

I feel it sounds so utterly preventable. There but for the grace of god go any of us. Why on earth was she not provided more protection?

I hope some good can come from this and there is a proper review of post natal services for women with existing mental health problems.

RIP mum and baby. So utterly let down.

I was inpatient in a mother and baby psychiatric ward twice, once for 2 weeks, the other for 3 months. A number of times I was on level 2 obs, which is having someone with you at all times, including getting dressed, showering, going to the toilet. You are followed and they make sure you are within eyesight at all times (level 1 is being within touching distance at all times). Level 3 is checks every 15 minutes.

So I'd say having someone with schizophrenia and depression on half hourly jobs is not being closely monitored at all.

Twosa but it is fairly close observation for a person on a medical ward.

I would not go as far as saying my life was shattered. I got locked up against my will not under a section for a month for the assessment thing and then I passed the assessment and "got parole".

I was locked up not because I had done anything wrong, but my MH problems classified me as a "risk". Thus SS wanted the assessment done in an environment where if I had got ill I would have been safe and baby would have been safe too. Although I was not too impressed at the time about the whole thing, I am alive and well and it does not bother me too much now. Only problem is the anxiety I get about SS coming back but everyone keeps reassuring me they have no intentions of coming back.

I do not see how you can be disgusted with the way SS handled my case. It was a bit OTT, but the team involved were not taking any chances. Things worked out well, but what would have happened if I had not been detained and then gone psychotic? I think they massively inconvenienced me, but protected my son which is what they are there to do.

The more this story pans out the more I think that could have been me.

I had said I was afraid of my baby being taken away and have told my specialist midwife this. Then at 36 weeks it was sprung on me that they had referred me to SS. I was gutted. She had a second midwife in the room when they told me as I think they were clearly worried about how I would react. I think they were relieved I accepted it reluctantly as it had always been in the back of my mind it was a possibility and realised if I resisted it would count against me not for me. I also had the reassurance that DH would stay with me and I would be in a private room. I think they were sympathetic and sensitive about it, but I also think that had I not been as supported elsewhere and hadn't made progress from where I had been that I might well have reacted differently or indeed done the same as Charlotte.

It frightens me now reading about all this, because I do fear that things will get worse not better for women because of this case. I would not like to be pregnant right now, reading all these stories and comments on the subject.

I do feel that sometimes unless things are handled well all around, things can end up being a self fulfilling prophecy. How people behave differently and irrationally when they are consumed by fear is very badly understood unfortunately.

It will make things A LOT worse for pregnant ladies with MH issues.

MH services have been cut back massively and this will not be reversed.

However one change will be SWs not wanting to take risks and instead will remove more babies, just like after Baby P.

The more funding for MH services on the NHS is cut back the more deaths there will be.

It was not that bad, they did have a TV!

Far better than adult psych wards. On the last adult psych ward I was on there was a men's relaxing room with an X box and the ladies lounge had a ball of wool and a jigsaw of London Bridge that was missing 3 pieces. I would have rather gone to prison than that dump.

1/2 hour observations for a woman with the level of mh conditions that lady had, combined with the fact that she was off her meds to breastfeed, was nowhere near enough.

I too am worried about the backlash from all this. I was hoping to try for dc2 next year. And the thing that annoys me the most is that all this is decided by people who have no real idea of what we are living with. Medically led models of care to disability are so unhelpful and narrow minded.

living I don't disagree wrt the level of obs but it's a medical ward.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean? Whether it's a medical or ward or not shouldn't matter. Half an hour isn't enough. Or she should have been moved somewhere where she did have more observation.

Sorry I don't want to speculate on this case. I meant someone who was at risk not this lady specifically.

They can only move you off mat ward and on to a psych ward when you are physically fit for discharge though. I had to hang around on the mat ward for a couple of days having a blood transfusion.

if that had been remotely on the cards I would have disengaged from the system as much as possible, not answered questions honestly and tried my best to avoid any possible referrals.

Same thing here. I was granted my ELCS with ease, with one of the reasonings behind it was about building a relationship with me. They told me they were willing to do it, because they wanted to fully engage with me and gain my trust because they had cases in the past where mothers have been so scared that they had completely stepped away from all ante-natal care and had given birth alone without medical supervision. Which is a damn sight more dangerous for both mother and child than having an ELCS. Its a different scenario, but I think the principle is one that applies to wider mental health issues quite closely.

I have to be honest in say, I'm not convinced about 'being checked on' more than half hourly being the solution here either though, because the unspoken suggestion with that is an underlying lack of trust which creates the whole vicious cycle. I found it intrusive enough being checked hourly for physical reasons. When I'd just got to sleep, I'd be disturbed again. And again. And again. And that was in a private room not on the ward, which would have been my hell on earth.

For me, having my husband there to support me throughout was brilliant, and that's the way I think it should be framed. It need not be a partner, it could be something like a dedicated midwife or a post natal carer or doula of some description with the focus being on help rather than this more sinister idea of observing in a big brother fashion.

Women need 'support' after birth, rather than being 'checked on' otherwise the whole structure of services creates this atmosphere of mistrust and fear.

If this concept isn't grasped then this isn't going to stop another tragedy. Its going to merely shift the problem and create new tragedies from women avoiding health services altogether, or being condemned to being viewed as prisoners along with all the trauma that causes.

IMO there must be an element of choice what form the support might take: some women might want their husband/partner there, some might not, some may prefer their mother/sister/friend/doula/whoever. Some might rather want the 'distance' that speaking to a trusted stranger brings or the professional relationship with a MW - I dunno, I'm rambling.
All I know is that yet another tickbox/'check list' is not going to be helpful.

I have no experience of perinatal MH problems, but was on an antenatal ward for 7 weeks before and after the premature birth of DS2. It was very helpful for me to be allowed a side room, where I stayed after his delivery rather than being moved to the post-natal ward where every mother had her baby with her. DH was allowed to visit at any time, he brought take aways and a laptop to watch movies on. I was allowed off the ward (this was risky due to my physical problem but it was discuss in depth with me and all involved were prepared to accept the risks involved). I felt very well looked after and trusted everybody looking after me/us implicitly.

I agree with RedToothBrush, we don't need more checks, but more being listened to and trusted. Being trusted leads to reciprocal trust.
I feel v lucky that I had the care I had.

Yes, I very much agree with the element of choice thing. When I felt in control and able to refuse certain things, it made me much calmer and much more likely to engage. One midwife rather unfortunately used the word 'comply' in my first meeting with her which completely freaked me out and nearly had me running for the hills (she subsequently realised and corrected her comment).

I've found it frustrating in debates on MN about partners being allowed to stay and the need to start putting this type of consideration into planning for maternity units because this is exactly the type of scenario which merits it for health reasons, not just because it 'might be quite nice for fathers'. It really is dismissed as being a luxury rather than a something much closer to necessity for some, which I do feel quite wrong. (I hesitate to use the word necessity here as it wouldn't be the same for all women - as Pacific Dogwood says it need not be a father, but someone working in a support capacity, with the father being the most/only suitable person in some cases)

My nearest hospital has no private rooms at all, so my experience there would have been completely different and I honestly don't think it would have been the positive - and healthy - one it has been.

I spent a lot of time considering my options before I got pregnant. One of the other things I did spend time looking at the legal side of 'capacity to consent' and my rights because I was so worried about what I might be forced into or have my freedom of choice removed. When I think back now, I never really had to worry about that in the end as I did have choices that were very much respected however I do see real dangers here if there is a reactionary response, and that my concerns at the time might be something other women actually have to take seriously in future if there is a question mark about their mental health.

Miaow you cannot disengage from the system when social services are involved. You either cooperate with them or your baby gets taken. I was told I either went in the MABU or they would instigate care proceedings which they can and will