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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Not aibu but absolutely gutted about the mother and her baby found dead

175 replies

Goodmum1234 · 04/12/2014 23:17

I didn't know her but having only given birth ten weeks ago myself and now seeing her photo on the news I am devastated for her, her baby and her family ?? having had severe pnd four years ago I can see how things can go so wrong if no one knows how you feel and intervenes. RIP x

OP posts:
PacificDogwood · 05/12/2014 10:29

Everything Pomeral is saying Thanks

Wishing you all the best for your pregnancy Smile

And thank you, MNHQ.

TimelyNameChangey · 05/12/2014 10:43

I also keep thinking about her. I can't stop going over it in my head. I try to take comfort from the fact that on the camera, she looked calm. She was "somewhere else" already I think.

JJXM · 05/12/2014 10:46

I have been in a similar situation to Charlotte. Although I don't have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, I do have something equally as debilitating. I take anti-psychotics which have no proof either way on their affect on the foetus. If I don't take my medication then eventually I am hospitalised. In both my pregnancies I was advised by my GP to stop taking them. In my first pregnancy I had a wonderful consultant who presented all the evidence to me and I continued to take my medication. In my second pregnancy I told them I was taking the medication. I did not breast feed either of my children due to the medication being transferred in the milk - despite this I was asked several times if I wanted to cease me medication. Luckily, I was informed enough to know that if I stop my meds then I become a danger. Charlotte was quite obviously failed repeatedly and in my experience mental health and maternity services are often not compatible.

In my second pregnancy I was under a specialist midwife due to mental health issues. We met fortnightly and drew up a set of notes for the maternity ward to refer to upon admission. This was intensive work and expensive for the NHS. When I gave birth they did not open these notes - eight months of work for nothing - I had a terrible birth and was sent home with dangerously low iron levels - it ended up with me being readmitted without my baby and left alone in as room for hours. I felt like killing myself and I was on full meds and had an extremely supportive midwife - so I can't imagine how alone and frightened Charlotte felt.

lem73 · 05/12/2014 10:50

All the discussion in the media seems to assume that it was PND which caused the problem. It was a mental health issue and vulnerable women will still be at risk if the right lessons aren't learned from this tragedy. It sounds like poor Charlotte wasn't in a place which could offer her the care she needed. Maternity units aren't equipped for these needs and are over stretched anyway. If any good can come from this it's to raise awareness of mental health in pregnant and new mums.
Personally I can't stop thinking about her poor mum. Imagine knowing your daughter was in so much pain.

livingzuid · 05/12/2014 10:50

Pomeral I do agree and suspect we are probably saying the same thing in different ways :) I have read some absurd nonsense about being tagged etc. Aside from one rather appalling nurse who DH gave very short shrift to, our experiences were very positive. Every person living with a mental health condition is different and we need personalised care. So often I felt so isolated from medical professionals who looked at me as a machine that needed to be kept going, rather than what would work best for me, because actually only I know what it is like inside my head. It's important to find that middle ground.

We do need to know what happened though, in the hope it is highlights the failures of the system in the hope that something changes. We live in a society where everything needs to be quantified before something is done. How awful that it had to lead to this before the root problems are addressed.

PomeralLights · 05/12/2014 10:56

I can't help feeling she probably tailgated someone else's DP out of the ward (partner visiting hours end at 9) and that no staff member opened the secure doors for her or knew she was leaving.

As some else pointed out, if you are really determined you find a way.

Sometimes people die and the NHS can't save them :( it is a terrible tragedy and sadly, Avon Gorge has a long history as a suicide spot.

PacificDogwood · 05/12/2014 10:57

Every person living with a mental health condition is different and we need personalised care.

This is very true (although you could argue that every person is different, MH issues or not and that everybody needs to have personalised care) and is not something that current policy and guideline, target-driven health care will achieve IMO.
No politician will ever admit it, but tick box medicine is good for generating data and statistics, reasonably cheap economical to run and makes good sound bites. Personalised care is always time-, staff-, training-, resource-intensive and with current funding not achievable IMO.

I am actually quite heartened that some of you describe really good care and I suspect that a lot of that was down to dedicated and highly motivated individuals.

bbqr · 05/12/2014 10:59

lem73 - I agree, not only do we need to raise awareness of mental health issues in new mums, I think the conversation should be broader than 'just' PND: as a society I think we need to move away from the general assumption that you will be flooded with love the instant you see your newborn, to a more realistic description of post-birth feelings, that includes sorts of emotions.

Everytime we are honest about any negative feelings we may have had, and talk openly about having such feelings, we are helping new mums to feel that it is OK to feel bad, sad, wierded out etc etc. As a brand new mum I was not prepared for how I felt immediately after the birth of my son, yet I didn't have mental health problems and I had a supportive family. I cannot imagine how Charlotte felt.

How can we come together to prevent anything like this happening again?

cherubimandseraphim · 05/12/2014 11:08

she will have genuinely believed that there is no other way than to kill herself and her daughter, that the world/her family would be better off without her, and that she could 'save' her daughter by taking her with her .

Exactly as Pacific says. As others have said above, there's an assumption that it was PND (which it might well have been), but if she had indeed been treated for schizophrenia then she would have a much higher risk of postpartum psychosis which is very different - and, sadly, it is possible for someone to become psychotic quite quickly and also to have some success at hiding this from caregivers around them, at least at first - and at least for the time it would take to act on any psychotic delusions given the opportunity.

Desperately sad :(

SaucyJack · 05/12/2014 11:10

"Charlotte was quite obviously failed repeatedly"

Well unless you have information that she asked for help and wasn't given it, then no- it isn't obvious that she was failed by anybody.

IME all women with a MH diagnosis are offered the services of the perinatal MH team. I was, and I declined them as was my legal right. Charlotte may well have done the same.

Whether people like it or not, people with MH issues- and that includes pregnant women- are not legally obliged to engage with psych services unless they're under section or CP order.

PlummyBrummy · 05/12/2014 13:32

I had a long drive home last night with radio 4 on and this story was repeated every half an hour or more. It had me sobbing every time. My little one is well over a year old now but the thought of that poor woman holding on to her baby and feeling so very desperate just tears me up. It's so very very sad.

flippinada · 05/12/2014 14:07

"I think the conversation should be broader than 'just' PND: as a society I think we need to move away from the general assumption that you will be flooded with love the instant you see your newborn, to a more realistic description of post-birth feelings, that includes sorts of emotions."

Agree with this. I think part of the problem is, PND is equated with the baby blues, feeling a bit down. Of course it can be 'just'that (no just about it when you are suffering of course), or it can also be a lot more serious.

livingzuid · 05/12/2014 14:11

But they are under legal obligation if there is a perceived threat to the child. Granted that only covers post-partum (and I think rightly so - there was a recent ruling on this I believe), but there is at least always a safeguarding policy for the newborn.

Also a perinatal psychiatrist is not always available. It depends on where you live.

pacific apologies I meant every condition is different as it manifests itself differently. What I experience with my bipolar is not going to be the same as someone else. There are only general traits. It's what makes this so challenging and I wish I had more answers to contribute to a solution :(

Trooperslane · 05/12/2014 14:14

There but for the grace of God.

I lit candles for them. Even Dh had tears in his eyes when I was telling him, tears pouring down mine. Sad

PacificDogwood · 05/12/2014 14:23

No, no, livingzuid, I totally agree with you - no criticism was intended. Don't apologise.

GotToBeInItToWinIt · 05/12/2014 14:33

I live 200 yards from the avon gorge/suspension bridge. Have a one year old and currently 10 weeks pregnant. I can't get Charlotte and her baby out of my mind. I can only be thankful that I have never suffered how it seems Charlotte was suffering. My DM just said 'why didn't she give the baby to someone else first? I can't imagine taking my baby with me'. To me, that's the point. We can't imagine it because we are lucky enough to have never been in that position. If she had one ounce of rational thought in her mind I am sure she would not have done what she did.

livingzuid · 05/12/2014 14:42

She may not have been depressed. She may have been in a psychosis. Either one is just awful to contemplate :(

pacific Thanks

wowfudge · 05/12/2014 14:49

Poor woman and my heart goes out to her family. She must really have been in a truly awful place to do what she did.

ithoughtofitfirst · 05/12/2014 15:05

Every time i hold my 6week old dd i think of that poor woman and poor baby. I had pnd with my son and wished i was dead every day for about 10 months. I felt so desperate sometimes. I don't know why i was lucky enough to make a full recovery and why this lady was so unfortunate to have had it so severe. The way she's holding the baby in the pictures, wrapped up in blankets. So sad.

CelesteToTheDance · 05/12/2014 15:07

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ithoughtofitfirst · 05/12/2014 15:12

Benefit of hindsight eh celeste ?

BigCatFace · 05/12/2014 15:12

"Schizophrenics"? "If one does"? Those are people you're talking about there.

I'm not sure this is allowed so feel free to report if not. I have bipolar disorder and am currently 7 months pregnant and have been under the perinatal mental health team since the beginning.

I wrote a blog about what that's been like- including things like what kind of discussions are had around medication and breastfeeding. I found Charlotte Bevan and her daughter's tragedy heartbreaking too and it made me (perhaps selfishly) think about my own fears for childbirth, but also want to demystify things a bit.

It's here- quite long so grab a cup of tea if you'd like to read it.

thesecretlifeofamanicdepressive.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/my-big-fat-bipolar-pregnancy-feat-the-perinatal-psychiatry-team/

PacificDogwood · 05/12/2014 15:16

Celeste, we have next to no facts about Charlotte's medical care (well, I don't anyway).
As I said upthread my SiL stopped all her meds off her own back as soon as she found out she was pregnant and became v ill.
Some people will pretend they are taking their medication but actually hide it.

The whole nature of some MH issues is that thinking becomes disordered and what we would consider illogical.

i think I agree with everybody on here who is saying what a horribly sad tragedy their fate is. And I also agree that MH and perinatal MH services desperately need proper resourcing, but I think further speculation on what exactly led this particular young woman to end her life and her baby's is not actually needed.

Thanks for the link to you blog, BigCatFace

pearpotter · 05/12/2014 15:20

This isn't a criticism but some MNers are clearly not understanding the legalities surrounding stopping a person leaving a hospital

Nothing to do with legality- people are making these comments because of the normal level of security in maternity units. 5 years ago when I had DD2 I wasn't even allowed to walk around carrying her in case I hurt myself or her from having weak muscles after giving birth. Yes sure if you wanted to discharge yourself then no-one could stop you legally - but you still couldn't just walk out of the ward as you had to be let in or out by a member of staff.

Which suggests either they had no security or someone let her out and didn't follow it up.
.

pearpotter · 05/12/2014 15:24

And I should say I was fine carrying her but that was their policy.