Not aibu but absolutely gutted about the mother and her baby found dead

[Goodmum1234]

I didn't know her but having only given birth ten weeks ago myself and now seeing her photo on the news I am devastated for her, her baby and her family ?? having had severe pnd four years ago I can see how things can go so wrong if no one knows how you feel and intervenes. RIP x

Laurandorder

Reported your vile and stupid post.

Very sad about both their deaths.

Blaming her (the "why did she take baby with her" comments) is wrong and blaming her care providers is wrong. Nobody has a crystal ball to predict suicides. If you locked up everyone with a past mental health diagnosis or depression/anxiety symptom, all obstetric wards would be permanently locked, like a prison.

How anyone can hear about this poor woman and her child and not be hit with sadness and compassion is beyond me.

She should've been given extra care and attention. The mental health care in this country is a joke.

It is an awful ending because it was so preventable. The hospital staff in charge of her care failed both patents plus their families. I do feel particularly bad for the poor father of the child.

I hope this incident sparks a serious debate about how serious the post partum health of a mother can be and why proper funding is very necessary. I also think they should have lojacks on all babies while they are in the hospital. They do it here in the US at the hospital I had both children in. If the lojack falls off the baby or the baby leaves the hospital ward, the hospital the door you are closest to locks so you can't leave. I thought it was a great idea and it was cost effective because you reuse the same device.

laurandorder just FUCK OFF.

I don't know how much monitoring or extra support this woman had (clearly not enough) and I agree that MH services in general are very patchy and inadequate.
To understand actions like Charlotte's it helps me to remind myself that she will have genuinely believed that there is no other way than to kill herself and her daughter, that the world/her family would be better off without her, and that she could 'save' her daughter by taking her with her .

This is nothing like the Philpot case - ignorant suggestions

IME some truly determined suicidal people cannot be stopped. They plan carefully, they don't tell anybody and they make sure their plans work (that does not mean that people who talk about feeling suicidal are NOT suicidal, often they are, but they are still capable of trying to find help).

I think we also need to be careful that cases like this don't put some kind of 'blame' on the women in question OR their carers (unless of course there was neglect/dereliction of duty) because there is a danger of 'support' then becoming v restrictive and 'tick boxing' or, worse, punitive (Miaow's story is the kind of thing I mean - how was that 'helpful', standing at the end of the bed and looking at you?, but I am sure some kind of policy was being satisfied )

My SiL has significant MH issues and stopped all her meds the minute she found out she was pregnant. She became so, so unwell and her wanting to protect her unborn child from potential SE of her meds almost killed them both (they are both fine, my niece is now 7 ).
There by the grace of god goes she...

I don't know how her partner and the rest of the family will ever get over this. It's a terrible and needless tragedy. Every mum I've spoken to over the last day has brought it up in conversation. I can't even shed a tear because I'm too sad if that makes sense.
I can't imagine how a woman who was apparently under supervision could walk out unnoticed. A nurse upthread said hospitals couldn't stop mothers walking around with their babies but I was told off for doing exactly that when my DD was born! I was walking around with her in my arms and got told you weren't allowed to do that it was against'elf and safety' I was a bit embarrassed. Also I remember when taking dd home the nurse phoned down to the security desk to let them know we were leaving with a baby (and she had to be strapped in a car seat) It is probably smaller hospital than Bristol but still a busy unit.
Anyway I think this poor mum has been let down by a lot of people in the system. I suppose it says a lot about the state of mental health care today.

I was going to post pretty much what Pacific did but she said it more eloquently than I could.

"IME some truly determined suicidal people cannot be stopped."

In my professional and personal experience, I would agree wholeheartedly with this.

"I think we also need to be careful that cases like this don't put some kind of 'blame' on the women in question OR their carers (unless of course there was neglect/dereliction of duty)"

This too.

This isn't a criticism but some MNers are clearly not understanding the legalities surrounding stopping a person leaving a hospital.

"They said on the news last night that she had stopped taking her medication so she could safely feed her baby."

I have read that several times on MN over the last couple of days, with at times added comments blaming the pressure to breast feed that is put on new mothers. But surely if a medication is unsuitable when you are breastfeeding then it is unsuitable during pregnancy too?

The whole thing is so desperately sad, but I don't think we should start the blame game just now. I had terrible PND after the birth of my DS, but I didn't know that at first. I just thought I was very rationally thinking of suicide, but had better not tell anybody as they'd be so disappointed in me when I was supposed to be happy.

We have no idea what Charlotte said to her partner, family and carers.

I also worry that the nurses choosing snacks from the vending machine as Charlotte walked past may be at risk from unfair vilification and blame. How on earth could they have known what was going on.

It's always so easy after the fact to say 'this should have happened' but in reality, nobody wants to be subject to protocols imposed by authority for their own good.

People going outside in their slippers is normal - because the only permitted smoking areas are sectioned off outdoors.

Just feel so sad by this whole case.

I have read that several times on MN over the last couple of days, with at times added comments blaming the pressure to breast feed that is put on new mothers. But surely if a medication is unsuitable when you are breastfeeding then it is unsuitable during pregnancy too?

I think, as with most medical things, it is a balancing act. Medication might not be ideal during pregnancy but if the benefits outweigh any damage to mum and child then it is better to continue.

Once baby is born it is a different balance, in a totally different context in the UK an HIV+ mother is not encouraged to breast feed. The transmission of HIV to the baby can be prevented during pregnancy and birth and then formula feeding will continue that.

In a remote area of sub Saharan Africa an HIV+ mother will breastfeed because it is the best option for her child as formula is difficult to get, may be made up with contaminated water, may be given dilute to make it last etc etc

As for the question of murder - this woman was ill, her illness caused her death and probably hat of her child. That is the same way as (sorry using Africa again) a mother with ebola may pass the disease on to her child and cause the child's death.

Mental health issues are exactly the same as physical health issues in that some are acute, some chronic, some are deadly, others mild, some can be passed on genetically some are caused by the environment.

OK, just feel I have to say that I have been receiving antenatal MH care from a consultant at this hospital and am due to give birth there shortly.

It is a great hospital and the MH care I have received has been second to none. My medication and the risks/benefits in pregnancy were carefully discussed with me. I would just like to point out that according to the news the nurses checked on her at 8:30 and then raised the alarm she was missing at 9:05. So she was getting half hourly checks, hardly 'not being closely monitored'. When I was in hospital years ago as a suicide risk I only had 'checks' every hour, so every 30mins sounds like good care to me.

I can't remember if the vending machines she walked past were a row of two or three. If two, they were the ones for the whole floor containing post natal ward, MLU, clinics, sonographers departments etc. admittedly late at night so wouldn't have been too busy but equally why would the nurses either notice her with their backs to her, or not just assume she was on her way down for a fag.
If a row of three, they are the ones by main reception so those nurses might not even be midwives and certainly wouldn't have had any reason to stop her.

I can't imagine anything worse personally, if I end up on that post-natal ward rather than getting a quick discharge, than being treated like a prisoner. There are four women to a ward, I think it's understandable people would want to go for a wonder to get some peace and quiet and being stopped and questioned all the time could be distressing.

I really hope this very tragic but ultimately very RARE incident doesn't cause the rest of us to be locked in and treated like we've been sectioned. We do need to retain perspective I think.

Thanks MNHQ :)

It is not stifling debate to compare this tragedy in line with a cold blooded murder. What a ridiculous thing to say. As a person living with bipolar I find it particularly offensive. Happy to discuss, but using legitimate examples and non inflammatory, emotive language.

Mothers taking their babies off ward ime always had to tell the nurse where they were going. No, no one can stop you but they can certainly ask a simple question to a patient with known MH issues. How hard would that have been? How overstretched were services that this was able to happen? It's just awful.

Like it or not, we are not treated the same as other new mums and it is for a very good reason. I hated it at the time but looking back I was one of the fortunate ones to have received such thorough care. There has never been ss involvement.

Medication taken during pregnancy does not affect the baby in the same way as it would breastfeeding. There are different issues as to how it may interact across the placenta. I kept up my lithium and ff as it's better to have a mentally stable mother who gets enough sleep over the alternative. There is no need to feel bf is always best as in some cases it most certainly is not.

I agree with Pomeral half hour checks in a big, busy hospital sounds pretty closely monitored to me. When I had dd in a big hospital I had to buzz for a midwife and it really was just your luck if one came of not.
I'm sure the midwives and nurses feel awful but it's not their fault.

Amen Pomeral.

It was a desperately sad tragedy, but let's not let us lead it to the point of questioning the legal rights of mothers with MH issues to go about our lives in relative peace.

She wasn't under section, and at that point in time had as much right to make her own decisions re: her meds or walk around the hospital as anyone without a MH diagnosis.

It's just desperately sad for all concerned

It's not just about looking in every half an hour. As a MH patient and new mum I can tell you now that is not enough. Changes can be lightening fast.

It's sometimes as simple as asking questions about where you where you are going and permanent vigilance. My ward always had a nurse on lookout and I could not have gone past without them seeing. They would even phone the icu to check I was there with my baby and when I was in a major episode didn't leave me. I was fortunate with my care. It isn't good enough for it to be passed off as a terrible accident. Procedure was not followed somewhere.

I have yet to see anything either about their child protection policies. There is a lot of proactive stuff to protect the child that can be done in full consultation and agreement with the mother, and no need either to keep the mother from the child. It can all be done together in a good way. There was a failing in the system somewhere and that is one of the most devastating things about this.

I think the rememberance activities are wonderful. A lady on another thread mentioned the memorials around Clifton gorge which sounded beautiful and very moving. So sorry for the family and the father.

I do agree with you living but I would bet my house on the reason for the failure in care being understaffing, rather than there being anything more an individual or team could have done (with the numbers they had).
Given the infrastructure we have, I can't see what more can be done bar treating us all like prisoners which personally I feel would be a step too far in the 'safeguarding' direction (and for me, with severe OCD, would likely make me more ill, so it wouldnt be a straightforward measure that is just good for everybody).

My consultant (I think she is the main MH maternity/obs consultant at that hospital) has been 2&1/2 hours late for an appointment with me before. She often works through the lunch break between clinics. She is wonderful, very professional and has given me so much support but I do sometimes look at her and think how tired she looks. Who knows, maybe she was due to review Charlotte, got caught up with another patient, and just didn't get to her in time. Stuff like that happens all the time in MH care, it's understaffed and underfunded and the professionals working in MH are usually wonderful people doing their very very best, often working all hours without recognition.

I have come across a number of midwives who work at St Michaels and have equally been very impressed with them. To me, it just seems pointless to start some expensive investigation into what went wrong, when we all know what's wrong with post-natal wards, they are all understaffed and no one gets the attention / care they should (whether MH or physical).