to think there is a massive disconnect between being a parent and working and this needs to be taught emphatically at school

[theremustbeanotherway]

So that my people like me, as so many of you are, don't spend decades getting those top GCSEs, A-levels, the Oxbridge degree, the high-flying legal career, only to feel like I need to massively downgrade/quit work in order to have anything approaching a balanced life with my growing family? Tis truly miserable. I know part-time is a possibility but certainly not at my firm and they are like gold dust elsewhere. DH very supportive and does more than his fair share but it's not working at present and I can only see it getting worse in future.

Are there parts of the world where society is set-up so as to allow both parents to work without the family suffering? Is it because our society lacks the support of a strong extended family and community network or because our jobs are more demanding and don't acknowledge the competing demands of a young family?

for you Greengrow. An intelligent and strong post.

Ahhhh the old you're crap if you can't cope with 2x wp insult.

Get what changed as regards a sahp? Oh and I didn't live of my partner thanks I facilitated his ability to earn our family money.

Regarding what schools should teach- back to basics IMO:

Obviously the traditional academic subjects

Respect (both for self and others)
That being told no sometimes is fair and reasonable
That you may not win everything, be good at everything but you should stay true to yourself
Allow competitive sports- winning and losing is a life experience
Healthy eating
Basic money management- including visit to th job centre and presentations from both employed and unemployed people
Apprentiship schemes to encourage Young people back into our dying trades, it is so sad that we rely so much on a service culture

Gosh, Greengrow, you've changed your tune!

Since becoming a mum almost 4 years ago this is something I have often thought about. Like you I worked very hard at school/college and have a diploma and a degree. Before I had my dd I worked full time. In an attempt to gain some work/life balance I wanted to go part time. My employer has made this very difficult, the company is not family friendly at all. In order to reduce my hours I have had to drop 2 pay bands and downshift to another role. I've had the union in but there is nothing they can do. I've just come to accept you can't have it all but still makes me feel all those years of studying were wasted.

I've found this thread very interesting. Not least the whole "men don't have this problem". 3 months ago my dh negotiated with his work that he would finish early one dy a week so he old pick dd up when she finishes school.

It's working really well. He's enjoying the time with her, she's loving the time with him, ds likes him doing the nursery pick up rather than me, I like having one day a week where I can work as late as I want because someone else is completely in charge.

4 happy little bunnies.

And then last week dh got a call from a headhunter. Absolutely dream job, brilliant sounding company, massive pay rise, convenient location, all the bits of his current job he likes. And he fits the spec so perfectly you'd think they wrote it for him.

His answer: I'm interested but we need to talk about flexible working.

His view is that if he can't finish early one day a week then it isn't really a dream job.

Mumoftwo that's great, more power to your dh! My career would have been over a long time ago if it weren't for dh working flexibly whenever needed.

But when at school or university you don't know if you are going to get married and have children so of course you should aim high and fly high and go for an interesting and fulfilling career.
I also think that 'job share' options should be explored by more firms so that young men and women with children can work part time, continue to develop career skills and not be forced into a career break.
I also think that when women go out to work, households simply don't budget enough for the infrastructure: ie ironing cleaning accounting repairs childcare etc.
I also think far too many retired grandparents are unpaid workers contributing to childcare without breaks or holidays to support high flying career women. I used to think grandparents were the unsung heros and heroines of the nhs, looking after children while their mothers went to work as nurses and doctors. But I now think that in their old age they were simply being taken advantage of by the system which fails totally to pay the working population a living wage.

Haven't read the full thread so apologies if I'm repeating but the OP could have been written about me. Very academic background, Oxbridge degree, high flying City lawyer. I don't have it all and am not happy with my work life balance. However I'm struggling with the suggestion that at the age of 16, 18, or 21 I should have foreseen this and not chosen to be a lawyer. At that stage I was single, wanted kids but never thought I would find someone who want them with me. I am good at my job, successful etc etc but should I have chosen a less high flying option, on the off chance I might have had children? I was at a highly academic girls' school where we were taught we were equal to men, could outperform them in some areas and could do whatever we wanted. Maybe the OP is right and we shouldn't encourage that ambition?

Greengrow as ever you make some very valid well thought out points but why do you always have to denigrate women who choose to stay at home and the work that they do?

I'm a SAHM of 3 DC's and I love it but am fascinated to read these threads as in awe of women and men who manage to work f/t and care for their families. My DH works long hours, often away for days on end and I'm totally happy to do pretty much everything else. I see it as my job even though in your eyes I would be looked down on, why can't you just accept that some women are actually more than happy with this state of affairs? It works well for us because none of us are particularly stressed.

The suggestion that women should choose lower-paying and more flexible (read: unstable) jobs from the get go in anticipation of having children in the future is HIGHLY problematic. First, why aren't men encouraged the same? Secondly, this sort of attitude/encourage is what sees women opting out before they need to and then being stuck dependent financially on men or in later life poverty. Thirdly, it puts the burden (and financial cost) on individual women rather than asking society to adapt.

Susan Moller Okin has written on this in her book Justice, Gender and the Family - see her chapter on the vulnerability of marriage.

(and OP, I could have written your post)

I think if I'd realised what was ahead, I still would have went to uni but would have thought about a career that I could adapt , that would offer flexible conditions, the freelance option/self employed etc.

Which we shouldn't have to of course, employers need to be more family friendly!

If I could have seen ahead I'd have chosen differently. Id far rather a flexible professional role that fitted with children ....
As above I'm ex girls school/Oxbridge and had no idea that I might want a well paid part time job later... My husband is often away and so I can't work flexibly around him even.

Only a tiny percentage of us will ever earn a lot of money and on the whole to earn that you have to like the work, have the physical and mental strength and stoicism to do it. This is the same for men and women. The more people who give it up the better as it helps the chances of those of us who are more than happy to work the hours

or in other words:
'there aint much room at the top so will you mediocre inferior types just back off and leave the top jobs to superior people like me who deserve them'

only a few exceptional people can do well in life, the rest of us should just accept our lowly status and doff our caps to the superheroes

...because they are the beneficent ones creating the wealth which will trickledown to the rest of us, after all a rising tide floats all ships...does it not?

I am a City lawyer so I can understand the OP's issues. I have two children under three. Many of my colleagues also have children under school age.

It's a real struggle to do the role without a spouse/partner bearing more of the loan - not necessarily in terms of hours but in terms of flexibility. Part of the issue for me is not just the volume of hours but the length of the day. I can be doing a call at 8.30 a.m. and another at 9 p.m. I also need to travel occasionally for work for two or three days at a time.

One comment that I make is that if you are a partner or counsel before you have children it is much easier than if you are a six year PQE associate. From seeing others, four to seven year PQE is the worst time to have young children because the workload is punishing and you don't generally have enough seniority to control it yourself.

There's not enough access to female role models who can really give an insight into everyday work/life balance when women are choosing career paths.

My mum was a SAHM so she really just encouraged me to forge ahead with my education. My dad was a teacher and was around a lot - always home by 4pm, school holidays etc.

I did a medical degree and at the turning point in my career - choosing a specialty - I got careers advice from seniors and consultants. It was actually the male consultants who advised me not to stay in hospital medicine - they all thought the hours were too long and the commitment to training too much - not just because I'm female but just in general. I was never given any careers advice by female consultants.

So I did GP and it has worked quite well - flexible, sessional and you can work pretty much anywhere and any hours you like. I work 3 days and my DH does 4 so we split the childcare between us and a childminder.

Now I have trainees - male and female - I always give let them know how my career works for me in terms of flexibility, avenues of work, outside opportunities and salary - obviously what they choose to do is up to them.

I agree with others that some imagination at an early stage is required to envisage how your career will fit around children is a good idea.

I'd be interested to know what other people's mums did for work and whether this influenced their career choices?

Teach this in school? Er......no. My GCSE students are well aware that some women work and some don't, as they have adults in the home.

My mother didn't work (except for some minor voluntary things) from when she married my father to when I went to secondary school. Then she became a teacher, mostly part time. My father was my role model.

She was from a generation and class that didn't work after they married (I got the impression that she felt she hadn't much choice about it) and my father was successful enough that she didn't need to work. I have always thought that her talents were wasted, she loved being a mother, but she was also an excellent teacher and once retired has been a very effective organiser of a charity too. She was out of the workforce for over 20 years, and could I think have made a bit of a mark.

I never wanted to be a SAHM (or a teacher for that matter!) I thought my father had an excellent life: great job, interesting work life, incredibly easy home life and wanted something similar. I never felt that I lost out in only seeing him for a short time during the week, so never really thought it would be an issue for my children.

nooka - surely your father's "incredibly easy home life" was thanks to your efficient mother's organisation and presence? And surely it didn't matter that you didn't see much of your father during the week because you did see plenty of your mother?

plummyjam - the NHS allows a great deal of flexibility in public health roles that other healthcare systems/countries do not. There is nothing intrinsic to the role of a GP that allows for PT or flexibility.

nooka, that sounds a tad ungrateful. She raised her family and then became a teacher. How is that 'wasting her potential'? Raising the next generation and then teaching the next federation? But your Dad is your role model? ? No wonder childcare and raising children is viewed as drudgery and menial.