to think there is a massive disconnect between being a parent and working and this needs to be taught emphatically at school

[theremustbeanotherway]

So that my people like me, as so many of you are, don't spend decades getting those top GCSEs, A-levels, the Oxbridge degree, the high-flying legal career, only to feel like I need to massively downgrade/quit work in order to have anything approaching a balanced life with my growing family? Tis truly miserable. I know part-time is a possibility but certainly not at my firm and they are like gold dust elsewhere. DH very supportive and does more than his fair share but it's not working at present and I can only see it getting worse in future.

Are there parts of the world where society is set-up so as to allow both parents to work without the family suffering? Is it because our society lacks the support of a strong extended family and community network or because our jobs are more demanding and don't acknowledge the competing demands of a young family?

Oh do quit with the lounging around all day as regards being a sahp.

Yes I do think there are other parts of the world where working parents are supported better both in terms of subsidised/ workplace childcare and in terms of employers being more supportive and aware of a parent's competing demands. There are also countries where it is the norm for grandparents to play a major role in rearing of grandchildren, although many already do this in the UK.

You have to make the choice OP. If you want the 'high flying legal job', the very high salary and excellent lifestyle that goes along with that, you have to be prepared to accept the restrictions placed on your home life. Many people in that sort of role choose to move elsewhere to work less hours or more flexibly, tend to have children later/ not at all or maybe just one or two. I think greengrow is v unusual in having 5 children.

Some medical specialties do offer much more flexibility in terms of hours. General Practice is one that lends itself to flexible working, there are a number of others. However, Medicine does not come with the huge salary that a career in a top law firm does (with the exception of a minority of Consultants who do a lot of private work in areas with high demand for this).

I really hate the thought that we might seek to teach our daughters that there is no point in training for a 'high flying' career. That feels unutterably sad . However identifying roles which may lend themselves to more flexible working is probably worth a discussion (albeit I'm quite uncomfortable as to why this should only relate to girls - I understand that currently it is mostly women though who flex things but would LOVE this to change)

Regarding careers, I was in a Big 4 company and when DC came along looked to reduce hours (I was working away a lot and regular 12hr days), however as others have noted it is difficult in a client facing role when hourly fee rates are so high. I did take an internal PT position but I didn't get the buzz from being 'at the M&A coalface' so left.

I worked for myself for a bit (which was great in terms of flexibility and dictating hours) but I prefer working with people.

My current job is in a Company doing M&A work PT. The job advertised was more junior but i applied for it on a 3 day basis for the FT salary and got it! Now, that's not to say i have the perfect job as there are still all the juggling balls in the air which i am trying not to drop but it is pretty good. I have also been put on a Future Leaders course so not suffering the 'Mummy track' too much. BTW I hate that phrase as it legitimises/normalises downgrading women's ambitions and progression.

Our Corporate lawyer drops his DC at nursery and then comes in and seems to work pretty flexibly. Won't be paid as much as a MC Partner but has some work/life balance

So, after such a long post , I would say if you are in a 'Profession' in a client facing position - try jumping to being the customer. It's much easier, even if the pay is less

I make it work easily but thats because at the moment dh does all the cooking and vast majority of cooking and cleaning. I also live close to my parents and all my extended family. I don't find it stressful no matter how many hours I work because of this.

Pinkorange, that's often the case. You very rarely hear of two parents working full time in high flying careers, out of the house for 60+ hours a week with a full time nanny doing all the parenting from dawn till dusk. There's usually one sahp, or one low flying career or part time work or grandparents at hand to help.

It's definitely a lot harder when there are no extended family to help. All three PIL still work f/t themselves and will do for at least another 5-8 years.

I going back to work in March after maternity and I asked to reduce my hours to 3 days a week (I currently work four) but my request was turned down. As a result I have to them I won't be returning and have accepted another job which means I will only have to work two days between Mon-Fri. I have to work one day of the weekend each week but I can manage that because I know DS will be with his dad as opposed to in childcare.

I just couldn't bear the thought of returning to my current job knowing that for four days a week my DS would be with a childminder from 8.30-5.15pm.

If I had grandparents on hand to help then maybe things would be different.

I think there are many men who would do sahp or part time but not many women out there that would let them

I think one of the fundamental issues is that parenting is experienced differently between men and women and whether we like it or not, women do have stronger bonds with their baby/small child after carrying in her womb, nurturing and breastfeeding. It's idealistic and perhaps unrealistic to say that Fathers and Mothers should have an equal bond experienced in exactly the same way. I've read this argument on the feminism boards and whilst I consider myself a feminist, I also consider that men and women do have differences. The way they approach parenting and nurturing are often different.
I know some will say this is an entirely man made social construct, and not based on biology or nature. But, as I become middle aged and watch my three daughters exhibit certain behaviours despite being in a non sexist household where they have fire trucks instead of Barbies, and a financially independent degree educated Mum, I'm less of the view that men and women are the same in all ways. Equal, yes. Of course. But the same? No. Not at all.

Rosy completely agree - education is not 'wasted' on a SAHP ( male or female - just as vital as for a high-flying career.
I do think there should more education generally about the reality of adult life, and the choices and compromises to be made. It should not come as surprise that children change your choices and a two person high flying career in the trad sense is not likely to be sustainable. So people (m&f) need to think about how they might manage their lives if/hen they have DC.
Never cease to amaze me that people don't think about this until they have, or are about to have DC, or, worse, at the end of mat leave. Should be discussed before you get married IMO.
I have teenage sons, and regularly bring this up as a topic when they talk about careers etc.
I had a professional career, then retrained as a teacher, less money, but good job satisfaction. However, do despair a the number of (predominately women) students who think that being a primary teacher is a good career plan if you want DCs. They are dazzled by the dangling of the 'school holidays' bauble. In fact, when you have DCs, primary teaching is about the worst career choice , as you will never see your DCs in term time due to workload, and never be able to take or collect them from school. Senior position in industry much more flexible. (As I found in my biz career - only was able to have the luxury of teacher training when DC in senior school and longer needed me there for them so much).

I dont believe there have to be any differences in the way men and women parent if men are given the chance

What are the differences that you believe there are meech?

Well, aside from the usual physical differences, there are numerous studies about brain differences. (prepares to be flamed. Don't care. Have seen and lived it long enough to know it)
m.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29405467

I agree Pinkorange. Saying there are stronger bonds between mothers and babies/children is a reason to keep women's careers secondary to men's. There is no reason my husband can't look after our two year old as well and often better than me.

Dh manages it

Meechimoo, have you read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine? If you haven't, it's a good read and pertinent to your comments.

OP there are options out there. If you have a good CV then part time work is available. DP and I both took part time legal jobs when kids arrived. It's as simple as telling the agents that you are only looking for part time work, and sticking to your guns. We both got offers of decent part time work (3 days each). Going part time is much better for your career than taking a break because you maintain continuity of employment and will not be perceived to have fallen behind on recent legal developments.

If the man does the majority of childcare from birth they will be exactly the same or better

A study in Scandinavia found that where men were the primary carer of their baby their views were the same as women who had been. It was just a question of whether men were given the chance to be there for the children where they wanted to. My children's father had no problem at all doing as much as I did with the children if not more at home. Men have two hands just like we do so of course can do just about everything except breastfeed.

Most people male and female do not want to work as hard as you have to get into that very small group of people who earn quite a lot.

What I say to my children of both genders is pick work which you enjoy and is intellectually challenging, secondly pick work that will fund the standard of living you want and thirdly try to pick something where ultimately you could work for yourself - own rather than being an employee of others.

There are a lot of years now for women between 45 and about 70 which will be the retirement age for many of us and if you abandon many careers it is very hard indeed to get back into them later.

As for the suggestion above that if women work full time men run off with their secretary I don't think that is so. there is even an argument that remaining the well dressed businesswoman he married how rocket at her work is more likely to maintain the lust than if you end up at home covered in sick and never dress up. (Housewives who are waiting in stockings and suspenders for their husband's arriving home of course can put me right if that is so).

OP do you live in London? I am a lawyer but for the government and it really suits me. I can work part time, long hours are rare and generally can be planned for in advance and the work is really challenging and interesting. Certainly I don't feel like I have taken a step down. It's not as well paid as a commercial law firm but we don't starve.

Ebearhug, yes. I have read that book . And The Second Sex. And Backlash. And loads of others. Some written by feminists like Germaine Green who don't have any children

I also think it's rubbish that your education is wasted if you want a family life. It is only because of my qualifications that i can afford to work part time in London and pay for childcare on the days I work. I would have a much harder life if I didn't have a professional level job.

I am out the house 12 hours a day and have been since our youngest was 2 weeks old. Dh looks after all our children. I come home to a tidy house and a home cooked meal every night. I have never came home to a messy home.

I agree with OP. DC need educating on financial implications of decisions, whether at school or home. I had rubbish careers advice, then a great high flying career, then abusive relationship where I was made to turn down all external opportunities as well as a promotion move. I wish I had realised the implications at the time and left him earlier or stood my ground. Now have not worked for two years, solely responsible for DC and dithering how best to get back in and where: law firm for the money for best possible childcare, or inhouse (my real inclination) for better hours. And how to get back on track as I am totally off it. Am glad the DC have had me for two years though. It's been great for us

Or set up on my own... I'd love that but likely tougher than it seems without a massive dollop of luck.

Oops. Hope I have not killed this great thread