to think there is a massive disconnect between being a parent and working and this needs to be taught emphatically at school

[theremustbeanotherway]

So that my people like me, as so many of you are, don't spend decades getting those top GCSEs, A-levels, the Oxbridge degree, the high-flying legal career, only to feel like I need to massively downgrade/quit work in order to have anything approaching a balanced life with my growing family? Tis truly miserable. I know part-time is a possibility but certainly not at my firm and they are like gold dust elsewhere. DH very supportive and does more than his fair share but it's not working at present and I can only see it getting worse in future.

Are there parts of the world where society is set-up so as to allow both parents to work without the family suffering? Is it because our society lacks the support of a strong extended family and community network or because our jobs are more demanding and don't acknowledge the competing demands of a young family?

I first question is does the husband of "there must be" feel the same way and if not why not? Is that because he does less at home or because theremustbe has been conditioned to be sexist and she thinks she should be spending hours at home doing boring domestic stuff (which is not the green grass she thinks it is but instead is relentless and dull). She is very lucky to be avoiding all that at present.

Why does theremustbe think family suffers? I havec worked full time for 30 years and feel the children hugely benefited from having full time working parents. I can list 100 reasons they are so much better off from having the benefit of others in their lives, their nanny etc, from seeing women doing well and emulating that, from having more interesting things to talk to their mother about because their mother has interesting work (both my daughters are lawyers not too) etc.

Is it not simply that anyone with children under 5 whether male or female at home or working does not get enough sleep and life is exhausting and all you have to do is endure that bit and then it gets much easier? The bottom line is that we lawyers have a life which is so much easier than our cleaners who may be up at 5am to catch 2 buses to work. Money and power and control give us a life many could not even dream of.

You need to look at what this balanced life would be. Eg doing the after school school run is boring and you see the child at its worst so if you work at that time of day you get a big benefit and you are not missing out. If you are home you do more cleaning up, nappy changing and clearing dust and sick. You are not missing out by avoiding that. My children have never wished I had no job. However they are delighted they went to private schools, graduated debt free and have some pretty nice holidays - in other words the things that they have are derived from my earnings, I also adore my work which is good. It is intellectually challenging and I am very lucky. I am not sure if I worked plucking chickens or behind the till at Tesco I would feel quite the same.

I agree with lots of other people.
I simply don't understand exactly what the OP is complaining about.
Her arguments are very very weak.
She's complaining that she can't have it all. But as others have said, this should have dawned on you , when you chose your options at school. Did you not research your career? Did you not ask about he lifestyle? The fitting in children?
Could you not have steered your career in a different direction.

You seem extremely naieve.
This all should have dawned on you a LONG LONG time ago.
Stop complaining and deal with the the issue in hand. Take advice, Change and adapt, according to your priorities now.

Agree with Greengrow. And the bit that so many women miss when they stop work to get a better balance is that when life changes in ten years time - when the family is hit by divorce, illness, death, whatever - you suddenly have no options. Opting for a better balance now has huge costs which are largely unseen but they are almost incurred by the woman and at the cost of her future wellbeing.

I now see many of my friends who did this ten years ago suddenly have to wake up to marriage breakup, redundancy, mental health issues etc. Some have gone from what they thought was a happy family life with both parents feeling they were contributing equally but in different ways and that the fruits of this would eventually be shared equally - to a situation where one partner has no options, no future and very little cash and the other one either doesn't have anything to share because they have lost their job or doesn't want to share because the marriage has broken down.

The lesson I would teach children in school is that you should value your financial independence forever - and certainly far more highly than most of us do now.

I never wanted the high flying career that you craved. I do a job I have always loved, having worked part time for the last 11 years, since I returned after my first maternity leave, and find that the balance is good for me, dh and our 2 ds's.
I don't earn your lunch budget !!
But the difference is that I have never complained about it, because I was never unhappy about it.

If you are unhappy, then work to resolve.

I really sympathise with the OP. THis post lays it out very clearly:

"I don't think I've ever been under the illusion that you could have it all, just that you wouldn't have to necessarily choose between continuing in some form a succesful career and having a family. For example, the ability to take up to 5 years out and then return to the workplace with no more barriers than the next person applying (though obviously there would be a brief initial period of catching up and brushing up in skills) would make a huge difference to working women. Similarly, if it were possible to go part-time for 5 years or so without completely derailing your career, that would also allow parents with young children to keep their hand in. In both cases you would probably have to make a sacrifice in terms of not being at the cutting edge of your profession. However what strikes me now is just how far you have to drop down in many cases in order to keep a career going or the fact that a few years out of work is perceived as degrading one's skills and abilities to such an extent so as to make it difficult to retuen to any job at all in the field, never mind returning to a similar job to the one you left. Of course there are exceptions but my impression is that what I'm describing here is more normal."

The real killer is that in many fields, normal work hours are insane; and if you drop to a proportion of them (perhaps "only" 35, which used to be a full time week) you lose any hope of pro rata pay, respect, advancement, a chip and a chair. It's such a brutal all-or-nothing scenario. What seems so unfair is that the quality of your work is considered irrelevant, unless you can offer unlimited quantity.

And yes, OP, do go and talk to some of the lovely people on the feminist boards who will totally get what you are talking about and may even offer some useful advice (if you want it)

its the career OP.....

high paying roles tend to be be 5 days per week/long days, evening and weekend calls

The people I know who have flexible family-friendly work , earn alot less

I do think that the real deal clincher in many cases is having a supportive extended family around - DH and I both work full time in middle management careers with a very flexible employer; however when we look around, the happiest people with more of a balance are the ones who can get the odd night out, weekend away, have grandma pick up the kids and give them their dinner, or are there in case the children are sick at the last minute.

We don't have any family support and have average, well paid careers, but it is extremely hard at times.

I don't agree schools can take the can for teaching anything, as you don't know if you will choose to have children at all - what career you will go into - what sort of family support and so on.

If you had told me at school I would go onto have four children in the UK (a foreign country) and would have a career in IT I would have laughed you out of the room! At the time I wanted a career in politics, working in Brussels and abhorred the idea of kids. I only decided to have kids at 30 when I met my DH.

given that the majority of "high flying career" jobs are held by men, nothing will change until senior |MEN in industry champion this- in service of health, well being as well as family life

A few women CEOs wont do shit

I think schools should teach a whole lot of stuff that not everybody's parents could be expected to know. Like they arrange work experience for older children.

Schools should teach:

Driving
Tax, mortgages, basic investments
healthy / abusive relationship behaviour
Ranges of salaries / benefits / lifestyles in certain kinds of jobs
Basic philosophy including political philosophy and ethics

I think the difficulty of family life with certain kinds of job would be covered a little in that fourth point

Hi,

I am a bit surprised at some of the responses to your post. The suggestion that you should have chosen a different career or should change career based on your desire to have a family is completely ludicrous. We need women to be in high flying careers and so we should be, its not your career that needs to change its the attitude of employers and society!

In answer to your question the UK is a bit behind the times when it comes to work life balance. In Holland for example flexible working practices are widespread and both men and women take advantage of flexible working to achieve a better work life balance. Many fathers work condensed weeks so that they can spend at least one day of the working week with their children, in fact it is so common it is known as 'Daddy day'. This more balanced approach to family and work for both parents has benefits all round, not just for family well-being but for businesses too. Flexible working has been shown to increase the productivity and moral of employees. So much so that Virgin have just introduced a flexible working policy, which allows staff to take time off as and when they like with no limit on the amount of annual leave they take (as long as they get their work done), which is a bold move and hopefully one that will get other companies thinking about the benefits of flexible working policies.

However remember that you and your partner both have the right to request flexible working www.gov.uk/flexible-working/overview

Also parental leave is changing, in April next year mothers and fathers will be able to share parental leave between them www.gov.uk/shared-parental-leave-and-pay

If you want to do more investigating there are loads of good books on this topic, I found the following book to be an interesting read 'Shattered: Modern Motherhood and the Illusion of Equality' by Rebecca Asher

It makes no sense to still be expecting women to make a straight choice between career and family, this is not in the best interest of women, men or children. We need to be challenging the status quo not simply accepting that as women we should be the ones to sacrifice our careers. Some women may wish to give up working, which is totally fine but there should be a greater choice in how we work to allow women and men to decide what is best for their families.

I hope this helps, good luck!!

I'm not in support of women giving up careers, or even taking their feet of the pedals. As long as the other half steps up to the plate instead. And yes, that might mean his career suffers instead. Or we could both go full steam, and then hire others to look after the kids. All are valid choices. All involve some sacrifice in money, kudos or quality time with kids. There are 24 hours a day. It's up to you how to you carve that 24 hours up.

The only reason that my husband works full time at the moment is that I want time to pursue other things. I would not accept him forcing me to stay home to do dull housework or childcare.

Agree with Roxie.
Children are a benefit to society as a whole, we all need there to be a next generation of people, the costs of bringing forth the next generation ought not to be disproportionately visited on women.

Surely making high flying careers incompatible with parenthood (for which read motherhood) is just a tactic of protectionism used by the patriarchal system to keep women out of higher status roles

I would like to agree with Roxie and Suzanne but for some industries, long hours are not just an old fashioned patriarchal thing but are there because the clients and/or type of work demands it.

And if UK companies don't offer that (because their employees all want to work more family friendly hours) then they will not be competitive, and the work will simply shift to somewhere elsewhere in the world where the employees are willing to do the long hours.

That said, I think there could be quite a lot of improvement in hours and flexibility, before we got to the point of losing competitiveness.

the work will simply shift to somewhere elsewhere in the world where the employees are willing to do the long hours

perhaps, but is that what happens in those countries which are more forward thinking?

I think people are getting it wrong to think that all the A-levels, Oxbridge degrees etc. are wasted if you don't have a top-notch career or indeed give up work altogether to have children. Education isn't only about equipping you for the workforce. Lots of the things you've learnt/thought will make you a fascinating educator as a parent, not a bad role model at all. Education can be about a love of learning and general enlightenment whatever you go on to use it for, and if you downscale from the rat-race at points it shouldn't be seen as 'opting out'. You're still a highly educated woman channelling her energies elsewhere for now. It doesn't cancel out all the education!

Totally disagree with Greengrow.

My kids are missing out hugely since I've returned to work,it's frankly shit.

I love my job,my partner does his share but we are all stressed,there is little quality family life and having a sahp was waaaay better for them.

The school pick is actually lovely and a great time to touch base with teachers.I've now been waiting a week for a teacher to ring me re worries with one of my dc.I have to send in notes if I want to ask the simplest of questions,I never get to see their classroom,friends,take them to the park/ sweetshop etc after school.Homework is now crammed into a very packed stressy Sunday and on Saturday all dp and I is shop,clean,do the laundry etc.Fun family quality time at the weekend is a thing of the past.

We're all tired,scratchy and stressed.

Sorry but for those of us who can't afford cleaners,online shopping,private schools and nannies 2x wp is pants, particularly for the dc involved.

And no the answer isn't a fecking private education,1sts from Oxbridge and law careers for all.

PS I work in Oxbridge.

Truly creative people use education for all sorts of things. It's never wasted.

I worked in a industry where there were few women, and those there were did not return from mat leave. I was lucky enough to have a boss who was keen for me to return from mat leave, and therefore very flexible and accommodating with working from home, and leaving the office early to collect DC from nursery. When they started school I applied for term time only - only possible because available on blackberry etc- technology helped - was very lucky that technology evolved as my DC grew!
So I was able mostly to take and collect them from school most days , and had school hols with them from when DS2 was in R and DS1 in Y2.
So was able to maintain a professional career, although my colleagues were men with SAH wives.
Feel immensely privileged -have now moved on to another career and DC teenagers, but recently sent old bosses letters saying = thanks! - because thanks to them I did a good job for the company, but had a great life/work balance.
The thing was, I proved my worth to them , so that when I needed flexibility, they needed me - could not have just waltzed in new and expected the same.

Part of the problem here is the cost of childcare. I'm not saying it's not worth the cost. It is. But the fact is that it's high relative to salaries. I'm from South Africa, where for obvious reasons, the cost of labour, and therefore also childcare, is far lower in relation to salaries. So it's far easier for both parents to be full time employed.
Here, it's more difficult. Taking time off work till my kids started school as never an option for me as I enjoy my job and go crazy without it.

I'm lucky in that I have a high paying FT job in IT but I didn't get a lot of money out every month after transport and childcare when I had 2 kids in nursery. But it was enough and my job helps keep me sane. Now that both my kids are at school, they go to before and after school clubs every day and absolutely love it there.

Again, I'm lucky in that I get to work from home most of the time so I don't have long commutes. But working from home doesn't mean flexible working for me, hence the before and after school clubs.

There are some things about my job that are frustrating but whenever I think of changing, it's the WFH thing that keeps me here. More companies should do it as there are many positions where it is possible, specially in the IT field.

All that being said, working FT and being a parent, or rather the primary parent, is hard work. Sometimes I feel I'm going crazy with so much to remember. How many dress up days, charity events, bike rids and school discos are there in a year?? Sometimes it feels like 100's. And keeping up with after school activities (4 days a week and one day on the weekend) can also be draining.

But I get so much from work that I don't get anywhere else. Job satisfaction, validation, monetary reward and many more. So I don't want to stop. Even if I won the lottery, I'd still do something. Not everyone feels that way about their job. That's a decision only you can make. Is it worth it to you?

I think any stay at home parent needs to be able to work, make their own money. If they choose not to, that's great. More power to them. But you have to be able to. If your partner dies or leaves you, where are you then? I've seen it time and again. And I don't want that for my girls. So I'm encouraging them to grow up with the knowledge they will go to university or get some kind of tertiary education and they will work. They should be settled in their careers before choosing to have kids. It can be done.

Good luck to you! It's a tricky situation but it can be navigated.

I still think that there is far too much social pressure put onto women to feel bad about having a career and children. The fact the phrase 'having it all' exists compounds this IMO. Why do women who work need to be seen as being 'greedy', neglecting their family if they choose to continue to try and have something that is there's to achieve and be made to feel that there is a choice and they are choosing not give their children their time.
It is a rubbish and regrettably backed up by as many women as men. The amount of SAHM who stopped talking to me when I was on mat leave once they heard I was returning to work FT was a joke!

It's liberating being at home with a young child. You think less of your needs, you go round the twist, but ultimately you're establishing a relationship with them. We're all deluded into thinking that we have a right to a career, and lots of holidays and crap from John Lewis. Concentrate on your child, walk round the park and shop in charity shops. Get off the capitalism conveyor belt and LIVE!

Strange everybody encouraged me.

The fact is you are choosing not to give your children their time.You're either there or you're not.

I'm not there and they are missing out as is our family life.

Thanks for illustrating my argument tickerty- us working mums are just so greedy and materialistic aren't we......

Lepetit likes what I am glad I don't do. That's fine. Children most of all want happy parents.

Only a tiny percentage of us will ever earn a lot of money and on the whole to earn that you have to like the work, have the physical and mental strength and stoicism to do it. This is the same for men and women. The more people who give it up the better as it helps the chances of those of us who are more than happy to work the hours.

I have not forgotten how difficult it was for us both (I was not in a sexist marriage so we did as much as each other) when our children were under 5. I had all our old VHS family videos put on a hard drive this Autumn and there is footage from when we had three children under 5. I am catching and holding down the youngest - he was just walking - to put on a cloth nappy and it is a typical scene of someone with 3 children under 5 or 4. Hard work. hard work 25 years ago. Hard work today. Hard work whether you're male or female in work or not in work.

I do counsel women against part time work however. They think it's some wonderful panacea but I call it and long maternity leaves a poisoned chalice. it's like the serpent in the garden of Eden tempting you to eat the apple. If you take that apple or drink from the chalice you will immediately be miss pin money at home. You will be lumbered with much more domestic stuff than your husband. Your children won't thank you and life won't be better and you'll earn a pittance probably for life to boot.

No one ever has assumed that if you do 2 operations rather than 20 or 2 court hearings not 20 you will be as good as the person with the greater experience. If women are conned into thinking taking 3 year out over 5 years means they have as much experience as someone who hasn't taken 5 year out then they probably deserve to have low pay and lose their careers. It's all dead simple. Also it's win win if you don't take lots of time off - you avoid all the dull stuff at home.

However I have always sought to get home before children go to bed and just like my parents we always had lovely bed times and stories (after the nanny had bathed our children). Obviously some nights you need to work late but not always. As you get more senior and earn more and in my case when you get to own rather than be a PAYE worker you get a lot more power and control. If instead you foolishly take yourself off to the mommy track then many women regret that and I doubt it is a wise choice particularly for potentially high earners.

On the long hours issue sometimes it's exciting as the adrenalin is going and you want to do the deal (and in my case I keep all the money so that's pretty fun). At my stage if needs be I will say it's 10pm I need a lot of sleep this can wait until tomorrow. I never think people work well when they are tired and most of us have the sense to start meetings early in the day.

Anyway the good thing is the hard stage does not last for ever. My youngest are teenagers and it is dead easy that I work full time. Grit, stoicism, ability to cope under pressure, being able to be pragmatic, knowing when you have done a good enough job, leaving work behind you when at home and vice versa, eating well - those are all things which I think have ensured in year 30 of my career I am hoping for 30 more years of it.

I do think people should try to prioritise sleep when they can. We all go to bed at 10 here and it's like the Waltons at bed time for anyone old enough to remember that. Moving my bed time from 11 to 10pm made a big difference (but impossible at some life stages and hopeless when we had the non sleeping babies we had for so many years).

I particularly hate people talking about "having it all". It is a phrase never made about a man for a start s o it's an ingrained sexist phrase. If people just mean can you work full time and have a family then of course you can - loads of us do it and it works particularly if you are paid quite a lot. Obviously some people can hardly cope with life or choosing which coat to wear or getting the children to school . It's great - less competition for the rest of us . However if you are a coper then it's fine. It's not a gender issue - plenty of men as well as women get fed up with working. The difference is because of sexism some women get the choice to live off male earnings - a choice they often deny their husbands which is very unfair on men and I hope we can get changed.

Schools should teach:
Driving
Tax, mortgages, basic investments
healthy / abusive relationship behaviour
Ranges of salaries / benefits / lifestyles in certain kinds of jobs
Basic philosophy including political philosophy and ethics

Which subjects would you like to see go to the wall in order to make room for all of this?