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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think there is a massive disconnect between being a parent and working and this needs to be taught emphatically at school

303 replies

theremustbeanotherway · 25/11/2014 21:53

So that my people like me, as so many of you are, don't spend decades getting those top GCSEs, A-levels, the Oxbridge degree, the high-flying legal career, only to feel like I need to massively downgrade/quit work in order to have anything approaching a balanced life with my growing family? Tis truly miserable. I know part-time is a possibility but certainly not at my firm and they are like gold dust elsewhere. DH very supportive and does more than his fair share but it's not working at present and I can only see it getting worse in future.

Are there parts of the world where society is set-up so as to allow both parents to work without the family suffering? Is it because our society lacks the support of a strong extended family and community network or because our jobs are more demanding and don't acknowledge the competing demands of a young family?

OP posts:
Meechimoo · 28/11/2014 07:52

generation not federation!

Phineyj · 28/11/2014 08:20

My DM is an artist and while she has not made a great deal of money from it, she certainly could have done if she had needed to, which she didn't as DF earned a good salary and it went further then. She has been a huge support to me in my career and life generally, because she doesn't judge other women's choices (or at least if she does, she keeps it to herself). So has my DF as he is very practical and has done things like helped me get a reliable car when I have done jobs with long commutes or antisocial hours.

What has been a difficult adjustment is getting DH to take on 'wife work' given that we both grew up with traditional models. But we have got there, although I have noticed he backslides when we are around either set of DPs.

The things that previous posters suggest schools should teach, my school does, at least to the extent we can in the time available - surely it's not that unusual to cover some of those topics in PHSE? Not driving (I'm not sure any more 17 to 18 year olds need encouraging onto the roads), although we do cover safety.

OP, hang in there, find the best compromise for you and hopefully in a few years you will be able to look back and see it was just a hard phase.

I agree society could improve though and with the points made about primary schools. I think teachers are the worst role models, however, as our work-life balance tends to be awful. I have had to go 'part time' to get my hours down to 50 pw in term time, 30 in hols, and on perhaps a quarter of OP's salary - I do enjoy it mostly though.

SuiGeneris · 28/11/2014 08:40

Plummyjam asked the same question I was about to ask: what did mothers, grandmothers, aunts of people on this thread do? How did it influence people's choices?

So, in my case we are a family of doctors, teachers and engineers. In my immediate family,two hospital doctor couples, the rest are engineer/teacher,(m/f). Not working was never an option for me: it was as unlikely as becoming a nun or a singer. I veered between teacher, doctor and academic for a long while, then decided on law after an unrelated but high-flying first degree
(Saying this not to boast but to explain educational context).

All my female relatives worked or work full-time, partly because part-time was not an option then in their country. I have worked full-time ( including months of 100+ hours a week), and various part-time combinations. Currently full-time and out of the house for 60 hours a week on average,but looking to move to 80% to support the kids more directly. Not sure it is the right choice, career will probably stall while I am on 80%, but I would rather stall that than the kids' development (have some specific issues to work through atm ).

Meechimoo · 28/11/2014 09:04

see I think it's totally untenable and crazy that parents should be out for 60-100 (!!!!) hours a week. I'd never see my children awake if I did that. Society has to change, perhaps adopt the Dutch attitude, so parents can actually spend time with their kids. My husband is a high flyer and I'm part time. But even as a high flyer with me here lots, he'd never work 60-100 bloody hours a week. There's no work life balance in that.

AgentDiNozzo · 28/11/2014 09:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Winterfable · 28/11/2014 09:54

I'm the complete opposite to SuiGeneris in a way.

All the women in my family are or were senior nurses in big teaching hospitals like Guys, St Thomas's. The men were all in senior banking, bank managers, bank inspectors etc. All very traditional and conventional.

I don't know what happened to me as despite going to a great grammar school and being surrounded by family with a very hard working ethic I was never particularly minded to pursue any kind of high flying career and all I really did was office jobs interspersed with back-packing. I only ever wanted to do was travel or just hang out and now that I have a family I'm perfectly happy with that although still hanker after more travelling.

The idea of spending 100 hours a week working even if you love your work sounds completely mad unless you don't have a family or any other interests in which case it's fine ... I suppose...

ChatEnOeuf · 28/11/2014 11:01

YANBU to want the career you've worked for and a fulfilling family life. But you are Definitely BU to want schools to teach this. My school did just this and lowered the aspirations of so many of my classmates. Steered them away from A' levels simply because they were female. Luckily I'm stubborn: I did do the A' levels, the degrees, the post grad exams... I've got a PT medical career and a family. I do have to rely on that family - DH does nursery pick-ups when I'm working daft hours (he is still FT, and works late at home if he leaves early for childcare duties). If when he's abroad with his work my shifts need rearranging or family step in to help - we are fortunate in that they live close enough to be able to do this.

What I do not do, is bring work home. Admittedly that's easy when they are all in incubators, but there's a lot I could do in addition to the day job. But I want to play and relax, and with DH often working in the evening, I would end up employing a nanny if I did the same. It's a balance, and my scales aren't overloaded this way. We also have a cleaner. That helps a lot :)

Greengrow · 28/11/2014 11:23

I think it's just about choices for those lucky enough to have choices. Most of the women if you go back before 1950 in my family had no choice but to work full time . Lots were in service. others were down mines (not the women). Many many had to move to find work. Some starved. I am not sure there was some past golden time when women had all the time in the world. Even just basic washing of clothes used to take a whole day.

I worry that some younger women aren't brought up to realise how hard life is and always has been. If you are off work for a year you have not got that year's experience. Yo might well have become a dab hand at putting on nappies but you haven't done the number of operations you would have done had yo been in work. That is not discrimination - that is fact. Now I am in year 30 of working in law and of course had I taken long maternity leaves over that length of working life it would not matter in terms of experience although it might have mattered at the time.

I suspect people need to realise there are some of us who like our work so much that there is very little we enjoy as much as doing it and you are competing against people like us of both genders. I genuinely enjoy doing my work as much as cleaning a floor or holding a baby. That does not mean I only do my work but I am certainly keener to do it and probably quicker at doing it than a lot of people which is why people want to hire me.

So men and women make choices. Plenty of men want shorter hours too.
I have a book called the 4 hour working week. If I didn't like my work I could easily live on what I could charge in a day as I'm not very materialistic. There are smart ways to work fewer hours if that is what you want if you have good ideas or are experienced or well qualified in something.

My advice to women who want a long term career though is keep at it even if you've been up all night with the baby (we did shifts of baby care at night by the way - only women married to sexist men are the only ones up in the night and my father in the 1960s did 100% of night waking with my siblings who were bottle fed - he was a doctor. So if men 50 years ago could do 100% or 50% of dealing with the baby at night I don't see why men now can't) as the difficult phase passes.

As someone said above once you get more senior in most jobs things are a lot easier. It is with quite a laugh we have been planning a family summer holiday for next year. Of my 3 children in work the one who finds it hardest to fix his holiday is the one working as a postman at present. So we have me, lawyer, my two lawyer daughters and one of those's banker husband all fitting our time off around the postman's availability as he is the least senior so has much less choice over just about everything never mind fitting it around school holidays for the teenagers (it is my 27th year of having children at school and probably another 6 years before we will be able to take holidays out of school time.

Woody Allen was once asked how he did well. He said he just showed up. So many people don't. They are off sick, making a meal of pregnancy, skiving, lazy, unreliable. So that those of us who aren't are quite rare. We all be used to tradesmen and colleagues who don't turn up on time.

So what can we teach children? Most of all endurance, physical and mental strength, stoicism, capacity for hard work, ability never to be broken. In fact my oldest who never slept much at all as a baby finds that terribly useful now in keeping going when work is busy - the silver lining perhaps in the cloud of having a very non sleeping baby.

Meechimoo · 28/11/2014 12:01

Endurance, physical strength and the ability to never never be broken?!Shock
I'll tell that to my friends battling cancer, depression, multiple sclerosis, disabled kids.
That they need to get themselves some stoicism.

Writerwannabe83 · 28/11/2014 12:01

My mom worked throughout mind and my sister's childhood (my parents split up when I was 4) and she would have been very disappointed in me if I'd opted to be a SAHM after the birth of DS.

Suzannewithaplan · 28/11/2014 12:07

did you work down the mines Greengrow?

EilisCitron · 28/11/2014 12:12

Much as I hate it, I think Greengrow is right in that sheer physical and mental stamina has a lot to do with all this.
I don't think it is fair (not that anyone gives a shit about fair) that we have such a "winner takes all" culture where having 10% less stamina than the next person might mean you make 10% of their salary. there are many good valuable qualities to the person who can't do 100 hour weeks - many of them are innate talents, some of them are learnt efficiencies and skills. But it is the sheer being there all the bloody time that puts you in or out of the top stratum, and the pay gap between that and all other strata is so great.

I think it is also the case, within this stamina-matters schema, that stamina matters even more for women, as they are judged more harshly AND get landed with more general shit outside work. So being able to give another 5% makes it that 5% that digs even deeper into the woman, because it is on top of her already having to do more than the man next to her, plus she has all the other crap society demands of her.

Greengrow - you say you could work a day a week if you liked - maybe you could now, but you don't get to establish a career in law unless you have put in years of working long hours. you jsut don't get past the first hurdle if you want 8 hours sleep a night. this rules out a lot of clever people

Suzannewithaplan · 28/11/2014 12:20

A winner takes all culture is ultimately harmful to all involved and contains the seeds of its own destruction

kilmuir · 28/11/2014 12:26

Thats the problem with society. Careers come first, no time to raise the children. Something has to give

Bonsoir · 28/11/2014 12:32

Greengrow - I am flabbergasted that you should be planning to take summer holidays with your adult and married DC! Are you never going to let them lead their own lives?

TheWordFactory · 28/11/2014 12:37

I always take one holiday a year with my Mum and the DC.

Is that not allowed ?

Bonsoir · 28/11/2014 12:40

I think that grandparents-and-children holidays are another issue, TheWordFactory.

I would be very worried for the long-term future marriage of my twenty-something children if they were taking their summer holiday with us!

minipie · 28/11/2014 12:41

but Greengrow surely things like endurance and not needing much sleep are largely inherent rather than things that can be taught? I too have a child who needs next to no sleep - despite my best efforts - hopefully it will be useful later... She gets it from DH - he can do a 50+ hour week on 5 hours sleep a night.

I can't though, I need more sleep or at least more downtime. That's a large part of why I have gone part time/mummy tracked myself. In say 3 years time I hope to go back full time and maybe partner track - I don't expect to be seen as having equal experience as someone who has worked full time for those years but I also don't expect to be written off completely.

minipie · 28/11/2014 12:42

If my parents were offering the kind of holiday Greengrow offers, I'd go!

TheWordFactory · 28/11/2014 12:43

Who says it's their main holiday? Who says it's not a special family holiday for all the siblings?

Lots of families are very close and take holidays together . Not my cup if char but it's hardly catastrophic for their marriages.

TheWordFactory · 28/11/2014 12:46

mini I think that's true.

DH is made of steel (with a granite interior).

As a kid he did a milk round before schoolShock.

FriendlyLadybird · 28/11/2014 14:53

Re. the whole stamina thing, I've been involved with quite a lot of research regarding law firms and diversity. They all claim to want diversity but have a variety of excuses for not putting the changes in place that would enable it. The result is that they know they have not always recruited and retained the best of the best intellectually because, whatever they may say, what they prize above all else is stamina and willingness to put in the hours.

Personally, even if I didn't have children, I wouldn't want to put in the hours it takes to make partner in a MC firm. But law firms are at least pretty up front about what they expect and what you get in return for fulfilling those expectations. I don't think anyone needs to be taught that in schools.

rumforbreakfast · 28/11/2014 14:53

I'm an accountant and work for one of the big firms. I tried to work part-time in a client facing (audit) role after having my ds, but had to admit after 18 months that it wasn't working. When it comes down to it - the clients are paying the firm a lot of money for a service. They expect that service. The personal demands on a staff member, no matter how senior or junior, are just not their problem. Because of my seniority and performance record my firm was very understanding and allowed me flexible working arrangements and really tried to make it work for me, but the bottom line was - if my client came to me with something late that needed to be done by the next day, the client expected it to be done. That's just they way it works.

So... I decided that I would move into a support role in the firm (learning & education) which also needed my same skillsets, and I have found so much job satisfaction, and I control my own time. I miss being client facing, but I really love what I'm doing now.

I guess my message is that my path wasn't what I always thought it would be, but I have found a way to have have a great balance anyway. I am very appreciative that it worked out though because I realise that there was an amount of luck in it all falling in to place.

rumforbreakfast · 28/11/2014 14:55

I should have also said that then I was trying to make it work in a client facing role, I was being paid for 20 hours a week and ended up working 40-50 which was absolutely killing me!!!

mits01 · 28/11/2014 15:05

Full time gp partner her,husband medic as well.Try and do both as best as I can and we try(either both or one of us) to be present at school functions/awards/plays etc.Would like to work less but hay ho,working well so far and we are lucky to have an excellent godsend childminder.