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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that whilst DS' comment was wrong it was not racist?

589 replies

HaHaLOL · 25/11/2014 17:13

DS is in year 7. An Indian girl was talking very quickly in English to him and being silly. He said "stop talking flippin' Hindu".

Today we've had a letter saying he has been given a Senior Staff Detention, in big bold letters - "for making a racist comment". He told me he had to write a letter to her and her parents (don't have a problem with this at all). This is all because the parents have made a complaint against him.

Now he has a fiery temper and we can imagine him saying sth like that out of anger/frustration. DH is sure it's not actually a racist comment and thinks it's like saying to someone "stop speaking double Dutch" and he thinks its PC gone mad.

DS' head of year told him today that his comment will go to the local council and be recorded in a "racist comments" book. Is this true?! Surely she wouldn't have made it up!

I would add that DH's best two best friends are Chinese and Indian. We lived in Asia for a year. DS went to a huge international school. He would have had more nationalities in his class than the whole of our town I would imagine. His best friends were Japanese, Korean, American and English. For 2 years DS has been learning Mandarin. I cannot imagine a more culturally aware 11 year old among his peers.

DH wants to write to the Head to challenge the racism angle, particularly if it's gone down in some record at the council.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone. I just want to get some other views, please.

Thank you.

OP posts:
ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 18:37

I like your hair. Thank you.

I like your hair. You are sarcastic and being racist ('cos that's how I perceive your remark).

WTAF? Has it really come to this?

Dawndonnaagain · 26/11/2014 18:39

My definition is denigrating someone on account of their race.
Which is, in effect, what happened.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 18:39

No, it has in no way come to that. Don't be silly.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/11/2014 18:40

chimes
Using strawmen and using the 'appeal to emotion' are logical fallacies.

Natashathemum · 26/11/2014 18:42

I am actually going to agree with your Dh that statement was not racist. The term racist is used so lightly it lets real racism slip. Official definition of racism

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 18:43

Do what Dawndonna? I am too thick to understand that !!

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 18:44

No, it has in no way come to that. Don't be silly.

But why not? You said that it is what the person perceives. So they can, in effect, perceive anything to be racist if they so choose, surely.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 18:45

Boy, you said a mouthful there chimes!

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 18:46

Look at the words 'I' 'like' 'your' and 'hair'. Do any of them have anything to do with race? Might you be equally likely to say them to someone black as someone white?

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 26/11/2014 18:46

"So bullying is OK then."
"So SHE can say and do what she wants? Is that right?"

Jesus fucking wept.

If you are trying to go through life being one of the good guys, there are a variety of choices you can make when someone is bullying/harassing/irritating you.

Good choices: walk away/avoid/go to authority.

Bad choices: make racist comment/punch in face/knee to groin.

The kid made a bad choice - hell, we've all made bad choices - but at least he's owning it FFS, unlike the supposed grown-ups on here.

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 18:49

Look at the words 'I' 'like' 'your' and 'hair'. Do any of them have anything to do with race? Might you be equally likely to say them to someone black as someone white?

But if that person was black and had cornrows they could, if what you are saying is correct, perceive that I was being sarcastic and racist.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 18:50

No, they couldn't.

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 18:53

Why not?

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 18:55

Because nothing you would have said is remotely to do with race, obviously. I don't believe you're that stupid, actually. I think some people just like to pretend that absolutely anything can be interpreted as racist These Days, to justify not bothering to think twice about anything they say and to argue that almost nothing is really racist.

Dawndonnaagain · 26/11/2014 18:57

Chimes I'm trying to say you can't possibly win an argument if you can't argue it logically. A logical fallacy is a flaw in reasoning. They're a trick to make something look more pallatable. This government's shirker/worker argument is a logical fallacy. It's not real, but it's fooled a huge number of people.
The PC gone too far argument is a logical fallacy too, as is what you are saying about hair etc.

GoodKingQuintless · 26/11/2014 19:02

"His main point is that she is Indian, she was speaking in a way that he couldn't understand. He told her to stop speaking her language which he couldn't understand. "

But she was not speaking her language. She was speaking English. Your ds was patronizing at best, just because HE did not understand, it was something wrong with the way SHE was talking, and he felt the need to put down her ethnic origin. Isnt that racist?

I think that a lot of people who have lived fairly international lives think themselves above the racism brand, and act with too much ease on the basis of where in the world they have lived. It does not necessarily make them more culturally aware, only more cocky.

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 19:03

Oh right, ok. As for arguing logically, my name is Chimes.....not Mr Spock. Smile

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 26/11/2014 19:07

Well if you're trying to say you're not capable of logical argument, I think perhaps you should take that observation on and wait until you feel more confident with logic before telling us we are all doomed and stuff.

ChimesAndCarols · 26/11/2014 19:09

before telling us we are all doomed and stuff.

I'm not Private James Fraser, either Smile

DecaffCoffeeAndRollupsPlease · 26/11/2014 19:20

Gotta agree with NiceTeeth that it is depressing to read that grown adults find it difficult to communicate without making intentional or unintentional racist remarks. Difficult? Impossible? Surely it should just be normality?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 26/11/2014 19:52

PPs have expressed numerous doubts about OP's account and pointed out (correctly) that we only have the lad's word for what he said

However, if it's right that there were no witnesses then surely the same applies to whatever the girl told her parents, who then made the complaint?

I'm just a bit surprised that no-one's mentioned that ...

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually · 26/11/2014 20:03

Add message | Report | Message poster KateeGee Wed 26-Nov-14 17:00:46
The boy tried to shut the girl up by trying to shame her about her ethinc background, saying she was speaking hindi when she was speaking English - he would not have said this if she were not Indian looking, therefore it was a racist comment.

if he had said "shut up" or "stop talking rubbish", it would not have been racist. He made reference to her ethnic background with intent to denigrate her. It was racist. The family found it racist. The school thinks it was racist. The OP supported the school's action that the son should write a letter of apology for making a racist comment (and said she suggested it herself). It was only after she got the letter about it being recorded with the council (anonymously) that she started to change the story to it not being racist - they want there to be no record of the racist incident. I.e. a whitewash.

^^ Perfect summing up!

Some of you have more patience than me, anyone who proffers the Daily Mail as their fact based evidence, is hard to engage with seriously.

That's a thought OP, are you busy practising your sadface for the Daily Mail? Perhaps Claig could give you some tips.

sleeponeday · 26/11/2014 20:40

OP there is a brilliant talk on racism, and how a non-racist person can make a racist comment just as a non-sexist one can a sexist comment, or a non-honophobic person a homophobic one, It's a talk a friend, who is a teacher, has played to classes to get them talking and thinking, and in my view it's the best mind-opener I've seen on the topic. He talks about well-intentioned people who may say something with connotations they may not have been aware of, and, "It's a conversation which always goes horribly..." as your son's experience shows. "Are you saying I'm racist? I'm a good person, I'm not a racist." He talks about how important it is to have a conversation about "what you said" and not "what you are" and how hard that is, because nobody sane wants to think they've said something racist, because they feel the accusation is that they are racist. He talks about how perhaps it might be better to take that critique - that someone has made a mistake, and said something problematic - instead of their being an inherently bad person whose every thought is problematic. The idea that we're all imperfect and accepting criticism is part of life, and part of changing ourselves for the better.

We live in a world that's racist, sexist, homophobic and snobbish. I catch myself thinking problematic things more often than I like to admit, because I wasn't brought up in a petri dish and I am, as we all are, a product of my culture. The important thing is recognising that it's problematic, and why, and seeking not to inflict that knee-jerk bigotry on anyone else. There's been interesting research done where people are given word pairs to make on screen, and the response time rated, and instinctively people pair black men with more pejorative terms than white. It takes longer for them to pair the other way around when asked to do so, because they are operating against their cultural conditioning. That applies to people who identify as very culturally aware - "PC" as your husband would call it - just as much as those who scoff at the notion there's anything to worry about.

Your son is still a child. He instinctively made a comment because he's a product of his culture, but he also made one without a full awareness of the weight of history behind his words. The girl's parents, and to an extent the girl, don't have that luxury, because they live with the effects of racism every single day of their lives. To your husband, the comment is trivial, in the same way my father-in-law was hugely indignant when disciplined for making a personal and sexually suggestive joke to a colleague when first meeting her. Neither seem to be recognising that the targets will deal with this crap all the time, and that's the context in which the comment is seen, necessarily.

There is a joke that a black woman looks in the mirror in the morning, and sees a black woman. A white woman looks in the mirror in the morning, and sees a woman. And a white man looks in the mirror in the morning, and sees a human being. Like so many jokes, it's funny 'cos it's true. To your son, the comment was trivial. But it wasn't to the target - how could it be? And so it is being logged, not to demonise him, but to assess the prevalence of comments like that. And the fact is, if they didn't maintain a zero tolerance approach to this, then a lot more overt racism would flourish. That doesn't mean your son is a racist person. It just means that he said one thing that was problematic, and maybe he could use this situation as a means to think about what it is like to meet with comments like that all the time, on all fronts... even from boys who are actually nice people, almost all of the time.

Christina22xx · 26/11/2014 21:41

guys it wasnt racist, hindu isnt a race.
ignorant, rude maybe even xenophobic but not racist.

sleeponeday · 26/11/2014 21:48

You think his making that comment to a girl whose ethnicity was Indian is just an irrelevance, then?

If the only racist comments are educated and informed ones then you automatically remove rather a large swathe of them on a technicality.

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