To think that whilst DS' comment was wrong it was not racist?

[HaHaLOL]

DS is in year 7. An Indian girl was talking very quickly in English to him and being silly. He said "stop talking flippin' Hindu".

Today we've had a letter saying he has been given a Senior Staff Detention, in big bold letters - "for making a racist comment". He told me he had to write a letter to her and her parents (don't have a problem with this at all). This is all because the parents have made a complaint against him.

Now he has a fiery temper and we can imagine him saying sth like that out of anger/frustration. DH is sure it's not actually a racist comment and thinks it's like saying to someone "stop speaking double Dutch" and he thinks its PC gone mad.

DS' head of year told him today that his comment will go to the local council and be recorded in a "racist comments" book. Is this true?! Surely she wouldn't have made it up!

I would add that DH's best two best friends are Chinese and Indian. We lived in Asia for a year. DS went to a huge international school. He would have had more nationalities in his class than the whole of our town I would imagine. His best friends were Japanese, Korean, American and English. For 2 years DS has been learning Mandarin. I cannot imagine a more culturally aware 11 year old among his peers.

DH wants to write to the Head to challenge the racism angle, particularly if it's gone down in some record at the council.

I hope this post doesn't offend anyone. I just want to get some other views, please.

Thank you.

'Why is it "what is perceived" rather than "what is intended"?'

Because that is what the Macpherson Report recommended, and I think that is even law for the Crown Prosecution Service now.

"Racist or religious incidents

The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry Report was published in February 1999, and defined a racist incident as:

˜... any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."

We accept this definition.

We define a religious incident as:

"Any incident which is believed to be motivated because of a person's religion or perceived religion, by the victim or any other person".

Both definitions help us to identify all racist or religious incidents on our case files to make sure we take the racist or religious element into account when we make decisions about prosecuting."

www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html#a02

What slippery slope would that be, Chimes?

I would like to tell you to stop being obtuse, Icimoi - but then I am sure you would call me an 'obtusist'. If Claig can understand it, then why can't you? We ARE on a slippery slope and it is really sad.

Chimes, if someone called you by a vicious racist name, would you feel any less hurt by it if they popped up and said they didn't intend to be racist?

And if someone said something to you but didn't mean it to be racist but you perceived it was? Why is that any different?

So now I have a very distressed DS. The girl involved has told everyone. In one lesson all the people on DS' table were mean to him and told him no-one likes him now. Is he just meant to suck that up as part of the punishment?

I have to say my reaction to your description is that your son's comment was clearly racist. I'm happy to accept that he himself is not racist, but the school is right on this one - the behaviour needs to be dealt with and you're simply digging yourself into a whole with this one. (I remember my Hindu and Muslim friends back when I was at school having this sort of thing said to them- and yes it was racist, and yes it did hurt them very much. However casually it was meant, whether or not your son intended to make a racist remark, the remark was racist).

Actually he says it to DH and I. We sometimes speak in French (me very badly!) if we are talking about sth like xmas presents for example. DS will say "stop flipping speaking French". So yes, he would say it to a white person.

HaHaLol, I don't think he has much choice. What can he do about it? He can't say I didn't mean it, I was joking etc, because her "perception" and her parents' is different and that overrides what he has to say for himself.

"They have heard one side of the story. They have not actually talked to DS, or us, about it before concluding racism and the punishment."

There is no point, because "perception" comes above what he has to say.

So, what are you going to do about it? Having a go at the school for not knowing the difference between a race and a religion is just going to add you to the list of people who aren't being spoken to at the moment. This is, in terms of bad things that you can do in school a pretty small one. I wouldn't be in the business of making a big deal out of it.

Claig, you keep avoiding questions about when record keeping becomes excessive. Picture the scene: on 1st November a child says something racist to another. The teacher to whom it was reported decides it was probably a one-off and doesn't record it. On 15th November he does it again, it gets reported to teacher no. 2 who checks the records and notes that the child has no previous history, decides it was probably a one-off and doesn't record it. It happens again on 17th November, gets reported to teacher no. 3, who again doesn't record it. On 24th November, another incident gets reported to teacher no. 1, but she again decides that it's an isolated incident, particularly because there's nothing in the records, so she doesn't record it. And so on, until there have been 20 or more incidents within the space of a few weeks, and the teachers finally realise that is the case. However, they can't prove any of it, they can't produce dates and witness statements, because no-one ever recorded it. Yes, they can begin recording it now, but the fact is that 20 children have been the victim of this child's conduct, possibly more than once, before the school begins to take more serious action.

Is all of that OK with you?

Well poor handling by the school unbelievable, what a lot of time, paperwork and energy which the school should be directing elsewhere. I hope they deal with the bullying of your son.

Chimes, I repeat: if someone called you by a vicious racist name, would you feel any less hurt by it if they popped up and said they didn't intend to be racist? Is there any chance of you not avoiding the question?

Cross-posted with OP. Sorry to hear that OP. But I do wonder if the girl's reaction could have been pre-empted if you'd backed the school up and encouraged him to apologise to her, rather than trying to minimise his behaviour. Has he apologised to her?

I'm not sure if it was racist or not. But your son made a lot of very lazy assumptions based on this girl's skin colour - he called her Indian when in fact she is British, and so a native English speaker (I know a few people of Indian heritage who can't speak a word of any Indian language). He made a sloppy reference to either language or religion, without knowing if either was accurate (not all Indians are Hindus, and not all Indians speak Hindi). Regardless of how or what she was saying, making a derogatory reference to anything regarding her skin colour (same would be true of her gender) was a very stupid thing for him to have done, I don't care how 'international' he is/was (you do know that every racist out there always has a best mate who's Pakistani or black or whatever).

He (and you, it sounds like) is about to learn the hard way that making lazy slurs like this can backfire spectacularly. And there's absolutely no need for it - I went through 10 years of schooling with a large number of Indian (i.e. Indian-born) girls, without ever feeling the need to come up with this kind of rubbish, however irritating someone might have been.

"stop talking flippin' Hindu" Is that a vicious racist name?

And if someone said something to you but didn't mean it to be racist but you perceived it was? Why is that any different?

Because, if you have said something racist, it is still extremely hurtful to the victim whether you meant it to be or not. And the more people say these things, the more others pick them up and the more acceptable they become. Which I assume you do not condone.

Dora as explained we are not HAVING A GO at the school. We are defending our DS regarding the severity of the charge they are laying at him. They are asking us to sign a form to say we accept he was racist. We do not so it would be wrong of us to sign it.

For those saying we are having a go/getting angry at the school, perhaps you do not realise that there is a way to state your case in a calm and measured way. It does not mean we are expecting anything to change. It means we are representing our DS and what we believe about his comment.

All this has achieved is one set of self-satisfied parents at the supposed slight of their daughter, and one very unhappy boy who won't want to go to school and will probably think that all 'Indian' people are like those parents.

So this has achieved exactly.......what?

It could have been dealt with quickly and quietly between both parties, and they could have kissed and made-up......as children do at that age. This political correctness has gone too far.

I'm not being obtuse about the slippery slope, Chimes; I didn't want to make any unwarranted assumptions about you. The slippery slope I referred to was the one involved where teachers pick and choose whether they will keep a record of behavioural incidents or not in relation to any particular child, which then leads to conduct which clearly evidences a potential problem being ignored until that problem potentially escalates wholly unnecessarily.

Lurcio I said several times upthread that we have backed the school up. I called them yesterday and spoke to the Head of Year. She said there would be a detention. I agreed. This happened a week ago. I only found out yesterday. And now it seems to have been escalated. He has written a letter to her and her parents and he has been very critical of himself in it and it is heartfelt.

We accept all of that.

OP, you are displaying a shockingly lack of empathy and a great amount of selfishness. So your DS is upset now because everyone found of what he said? Boo hoo, cry me a river. You should use it as a teaching moment rather than keep coming up with excuses or pity for your son. I've been on the receiving end of similar comments and frankly, it is rather upsetting so the girl's parents did absolutely the right thing by demanding swift action.

Why would you accept all of that if you don't think the comment was racist?? I'm confused?

Icimoi, I presume the teachers talk about the child in the staff room and don't need to look at logs to know what they have been doing or saying.

'they can't produce dates and witness statements'

Do they need witness statements at all? Is it not just about "perception"?
They haven't even asked OP's son what happened, probably because it would get in the way of their reporting to the council and their asking the parents to sign acknowledgemnt that a racist incident took place.

"They have heard one side of the story. They have not actually talked to DS, or us, about it before concluding racism and the punishment."

Oh dear. "Political correctness". I think that completes the Daily Mail bingo card.

Chimes, I repeat: if someone called you by a vicious racist name, would you feel any less hurt by it

I live in deepest darkest Devon. I have an East End accent which puts Eastenders to shame. It has been remarked upon many times (i.e. I'd know that voice anywhere, etc.). I have never taken offence, just shrugged and laughed it off.

I didn't think the lad in question was vicious? Where did that come from?

"They have heard one side of the story. They have not actually talked to DS, or us, about it before concluding racism and the punishment."

Icimoi, are you OK with that?

Is that how it is done at your school? Do you record what the accused pupil has to say in your reports?