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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask people not to touch toddlers not related to them?

535 replies

evalyn · 22/11/2014 09:14

Out yesterday with DGC. DGC walking, within grabbing distance, but not holding hands. Middle aged woman, 'Aah, gorgeous!', gently ruffles DGC's hair, smiles broadly at me. DGC shrinks away. I say to this woman, 'Yes, but you shouldn't touch, please.' Woman sniffs, nose in air, walks off in huff.

AIBU to think that even 2-year-olds have the right not to be touched at all, however affectionately, by strangers? And to be really annoyed that this woman thinks she has the right to ruffle my DGC's hair like that?

OP posts:
ChippingInAutumnLover · 23/11/2014 10:43

RandallFloyd You just typed exactly what I thought when I read the long missive. I was just trying to post more softly, but I wish I'd just written what you have as it's what I thought!

Gold - yes, I missed that bit out as well.

Pag - you too!

Just goes to show I should have made the coffee first then I could have just come back and agreed with you all - much simpler! Grin

Oh and PANG - affectionately touching a child it not the same as shoving them along a bench, thus your point it totally irrelevant.

FrauHelgaMissMarpleandaChuckle · 23/11/2014 10:47

You have some serious ishoos going on Evalyn.

LoisHatesChristmas · 23/11/2014 11:28

Glad you came back Op and you have clarified your feelings but as others have said, it seems your view is all that matters and you haven't given a second thought to the woman you were rude to. It was a nice gesture and you overreacted imho.

SauvignonBlanche · 23/11/2014 11:33

I agree with RandallFloyd - well put.

autonomy is very important to us as people - children too, I reckon, then why are you projecting your own feelings onto your grandchild rather than letting them decide how they feel about human touch? Hmm

RandallFloyd · 23/11/2014 11:34

Great minds, Chipping, great minds.

Mehitabel6 · 23/11/2014 11:46

Good post from Randall

It is actually impossible to touch a toddler if they don't want to to be touched unless you held them in a bear like grip!
A 4 yr old might put up with it and tell you afterwards they didn't like it but a toddler won't put up with it!
So many people project their own feelings onto a toddler. No one would ruffle the hair of an adult and say 'lovely grandparent'- they do age appropriate type things.
I think at least people should be honest that they don't like people touching their child, or grandchild, and not hide behind the fact the child doesn't like it when clearly they are fine with it!

Mehitabel6 · 23/11/2014 11:49

OP has no concern for the poor woman she was so rude to, just for the feelings she thinks her grandchild might have if her grandchild thought like she did.

Nicename · 23/11/2014 11:54

DS used to have his hair ruffled all the time when he was little. He had huge dark brown curls and would be patted mainly by Asian tourists. At one point he used to pop his hands on his head when he spotted a group coming towards him - he wasn't distraut but more 'noooo, not another lot!'.

Pinching cheeks I'd have an issue with because it hurts - I had cheeks like a gerbil storing nuts well into my teens and 20s and its not cute to give them a pinch.

Maybe the op is scared of germs? Anyway, she was rude and silly - way overreacting. But Im sure she will continue blasting anyone who looks at/ touches/ speaks to the golden child. Maybe she needs a bubble?

KatieKaye · 23/11/2014 11:58

I posted yesterday that perhaps OP was projecting her own inhibitions re physical contact and she had confirmed this. How sad to teach a small child that a kind gesture us do wrong that he literally shrinks away. And even worse to try to justify deliberate rudeness to a kind passerby.

Nicename · 23/11/2014 12:08

I wonder what the ruffler said? My own choice words would be 'weirdo', 'loon' and 'nutter'.

I do pet dogs but know enough to ask the owner if its OK and put my handles out for a sniff. You can usually tell if a dog is friendly by the owner.

I hate the idea that a child who has hurt themselves, or gets lost and is upset will be left bawling as everyone is too scared to approach them.

Nicename · 23/11/2014 12:09

Hands not handles (autocorrect is a bore).

Aeroflotgirl · 23/11/2014 12:15

Op we are talking about yourgrandson, not your son. What does their mum/dad feel? You are not comparing like with like, children and adults are different. The woman only ruffled his hair for gods sake, not put her hand down his pants! Yes I have a ds 2.10 years and is a cheeky chappy, prime target for hair ruffeling. Have no problem with it, it's affectionate not aggressive or bad touch! Op get a big firm grip!

Redhead11 · 23/11/2014 12:21

Clearly the OP's aversion to touch applies to the DGC, too.

I feel terribly sorry for the DGC. I just hope they were not yet aware of how rude their grandparent is. I also feel incredibly sorry for that poor lady. If i had been in her shoes, i suspect the OP would have had a remark back that she would not have appreciated!

ilovesooty · 23/11/2014 12:39

I hope the OP isn't as rude in every area of her life as she was to this woman. That and her inability to take on board the views of others are likely to have a more negative influence on her grandchild than spontaneous interaction with members of the public.

Aeroflotgirl · 23/11/2014 12:39

If I were the child of the op, and ops DGS was mine, I would have told my mum in no uncertain terms how ridiculous she was being, that that it is fine if people want to ruffle my child's hair.

FriendlyLadybird · 23/11/2014 12:42

In what decade of our lives do we gain this right?

It's not about age, it's about when we decide we mind and the signals that we give off. The DCs' tactile, Italian godfather came over the other weekend. DD (6) flung herself at him and gave and received many hugs and kisses. DS (12), who had previously been the subject of much hair-ruffling, stood back. He's now taller than his godfather, so his hair isn't easy to ruffle anyway. On leaving, DD got a big hug; I got a big hug (though I'm not much into hugs from anyone apart from my DCs, to be honest); and both DS and DH submitted to hugs but actually looked as if they were trying to climb out of the tops of their own heads. If he hadn't been Italian there is no way he would have persisted!

If your DGC didn't run screaming away, OP, then I'd suggest it was OK to touch him/her.

Cloudhowe63 · 23/11/2014 13:05

So a stranger was complimentary, gentle and smiled at a young child.....and from your reaction that child saw this as a negative experience? Wow! Good luck helping him with his social skills in the future. That kind woman's instinct was rebuffed in a way that will have spoiled her day and, sadly, probably make her reluctant to do this again. Lose, lose.

Aeroflotgirl · 23/11/2014 13:07

I agree Cloud, not only has op set a bad example to her DGS, but her reaction has meant another person feels bad, and reluctant to do a nice gesture in the future. Good one op!

Mehitabel6 · 23/11/2014 13:52

When I used to take mine into a retirement home to visit a relative when they were babies/toddlers we used to go around and say 'hello' to a lot of the other residents -it was so simple and everyone benefited.
I would be quite annoyed if my children's grandparents were to be so possessive!
The toddler decides-one of mine wouldn't be touched by his uncle -I think it was because he looked like his father but wasn't-he was disconcerted by it. He grew out of it. They do make it obvious! One of mine had his hair touched by everyone because it grew straight up. People stopped as he got older and it wasn't appropriate. To compare ruffling a toddler's hair and ruffling a grandmother's hair is ludicrous.

evalyn · 23/11/2014 19:30

Some people suggest I'm projecting feelings onto DGC. Not so, I think. As I said in the OP, DGC 'shrank away' from the stranger's touch. This particular child definitely just doesn't like strangers touching her. It freaks her out a bit (she's barely two, though in some ways old for her age). She engages possibly more than most of her age (ime) with people around doesn't really worry yet if her conversational gambits go unnoticed, but continues to try to talk to people when rebuffed; says 'Hello' and 'Bye-Bye' to all other bus passengers, as well as a smiling 'Thank you' to bus drivers as we step down; she asks strangers 'Why?' questions (not always appropriately - 'Why is that crane yellow?'); she tries, and sometimes succeeds, to get other people to join in her singing (mostly nursery rhymes, but she does enjoy singing 'It's a Long Way to Tipperary' and 'Pack Up Your Troubles in Your Old Kit Bag' some of the recent brass band concerts we went to at the local Cenotaph were a real treat for her as she recognised these tunes); she'll offer her toys to strangers, too (mostly grown-ups don't want them and other children around her age don't seem to notice!); and she understands compliments and will often preen in that unselfconscious manner lots of children do around that age when they're offered compliments. She just doesn't like being touched by strangers and at her age there's little she can do to avoid such touching when we're out and about. (Don't get me wrong it's far from a frequent occurrence.)

So, what should I do? It just seems to me not sensible to try to socialise her to accept random strangers touching her at her age and development.

And, does the fact that a child doesn't like being touched by strangers change anybody's mind, I wonder? Lots of people, children included, perhaps enjoy a stranger's touch. Those of us, children included, who don't -- don't we have the right to not be touched?

It's not at all about possessiveness, either. Possessiveness in human relations militates against autonomy, of course. What I want for my DGC, at the end of the day, is what I always wanted for my own DC; that they grow up to be (1) decent, (2) flourishing autonomous human beings, (3) successful in worldly terms if possible in a way that doesn't conflict with (1)&(2). (It worked well with DC, I'll claim.)

The complaint that barring casual touching militates against communal fellow feeling, promotes deleterious social atomism and so on; I'm sensitive to such thoughts (again, at least I think so, pace those of you who accuse me of not considering any of the criticisms I canvassed). It seems to me, though, that we can have social cohesion and solidarity without allowing random invasions of bodily autonomy. One of the things I thought we might have learned as a society is that people should be treated as autonomous beings as much as possible ... and that children are people too. I characterised the matter as one of 'right' to try to frame the discussion in the way suggested by that.

Again, sorry for the length and thank you for your contributions. I'm sad to read some of you saying I haven't paid them any attention. I have. I may not have paid them all the attention their proponents think they deserve, but, well, desert is always a difficult matter to assess. And thanks anyway.

OP posts:
ChippingInAutumnLover · 23/11/2014 19:39

Blah blah blah blah - you sure can talk, but you definitely don't listen. I'm out.

I don't find (the) desert a difficult matter to assess, it's a barren area of land Grin

Aeroflotgirl · 23/11/2014 19:39

Op you did not need to make the woman feel bad, which you probably did. How often does your DGD have her hair ruffled, not often at all I expect. So suck it up, its not going to damage her for life!

WhereTheWildlingsAre · 23/11/2014 19:42

My son is shy too and would have hated a hair ruffle. In the past, when this has happened, I have just shrugged and explained to the stranger that he is shy. Seemed to work without the need for rudeness.

evalyn · 23/11/2014 19:53

ChippingInAutumnLover:
desert, n.1 Deserving; the becoming worthy of recompense, i.e. of reward or punishment, according to the good or ill of character or conduct; worthiness of recompense, merit or demerit. (OED -- get a sign-on free from your local library.)

Your definition is the second one in the OED, btw, Chippy.

OP posts:
evalyn · 23/11/2014 20:00

Aeroflotgirl
"Op you did not need to make the woman feel bad, which you probably did."

-- Yes, you may be right. Possibly I did a bad thing. But, by the same token, 'the woman' did not need to make my DGC feel bad, which she definitely did. There's a
conflict here between making different people feel bad. How do you suggest I stick up for my DGC's feelings (as she herself is too young to do) as against those of strangers whose touch she so dislikes?

OP posts: