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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask people not to touch toddlers not related to them?

535 replies

evalyn · 22/11/2014 09:14

Out yesterday with DGC. DGC walking, within grabbing distance, but not holding hands. Middle aged woman, 'Aah, gorgeous!', gently ruffles DGC's hair, smiles broadly at me. DGC shrinks away. I say to this woman, 'Yes, but you shouldn't touch, please.' Woman sniffs, nose in air, walks off in huff.

AIBU to think that even 2-year-olds have the right not to be touched at all, however affectionately, by strangers? And to be really annoyed that this woman thinks she has the right to ruffle my DGC's hair like that?

OP posts:
LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 23/11/2014 00:29

Luann's joking following on from Worra's funny post earlier. Not sure that it's inappropriate on this thread, which has obviously been posted by someone not interested in posting back anyway. I've seen worse than Luann's comments on this site. Confused

fanjobiscuits · 23/11/2014 00:34

Yanbu

ChippingInAutumnLover · 23/11/2014 00:42

Oh I did look up the thread, but not back to 11am! Fgs. I thought maybe she had meant to post it on the other thread about issues with certain sexual activities being difficult when you get older as the knees aren't up to it! Grin

Either way, not a brilliant comment on a thread about a toddler having their hair ruffled, bridge dweller or not.

Of course you've seen worse on this site, it's about it being appropriate or inappropriate, on this thread, not this site.

If I hadn't read the other thread and worras post hadn't been made hours and hours, posts and posts ago, it might not have seemed as inappropriate, but I still don't think it's great, on this thread.

Anyway, up to MN, not us, anyway.

shadowfax07 · 23/11/2014 00:48

MrsD, what a heart wrenching post to read, and even more heart wrenching to have lived through and post about.

OP, YABVU, and rude as other posters have said. To give you a prime example of where this sort of behaviour is leading this country, a few years ago, I was with my sister, brother in law and baby niece at a zoo. We'd walked through the insect house. A small child had run through ahead of the rest of his family, and was becoming quite distressed about being on his own. My BIL noticed and asked one of us to go and comfort the child and take them to find their parents.

No doubt you would be screaming that my BIL is a potential paedophile. Nope, head of special needs in a comprehensive school who had far more experience of distressed children than either me or my sister, but he still felt that he couldn't help this child for fear of being branded one. He had clearances coming out of his ears, but still felt unable to help. How sick and twisted has this country become when a teacher feels unable to help a distressed child for fear of being branded a paedo?

Get over yourself, OP, and do us all a favour.

FayeFruitLoop · 23/11/2014 02:06

To add on, as a part of the minority 'it bugs me when strangers pet my toddler' crowd I will say this...

Part of me having a problem I think stems from him being mixed race... When strangers touch his hair out of curiosity (nope not making this up, frequently happens and people are very open about saying they wondered how it felt! Ffs) it really annoys me.

StarsInTheNightSky · 23/11/2014 02:06

YANBU OP, if anyone, regardless of age, doesn't want to be touched then they shouldn't be. Our bodies are our own, I was abused so this is something I feel very strongly about.

70isaLimitNotaTarget · 23/11/2014 02:28

A few years back I was on holiday in a Haven site, we were in the entertainment area, lots of children, including my own, milling abou.
You have to walk through the arcades to get to the bar/theatre bit.

A little girl 18-24 months, suddenly ran, the mum tried to catch her and missed, ran after her,
My Dad (in his 70s) went to catch her and I stopped him.
He was a bit Confused but I said "You can't be too careful now. She's not near a road or a river"

Sad but ow everyone needs to think twice.

lostoldlogin · 23/11/2014 04:24

YABVVVU poor woman was being friendly and you were extremely rude to her.

Toooldtobearsed · 23/11/2014 06:14

MrsDV I have no words. Flowers

Mehitabel6 · 23/11/2014 07:30

Yet again you are missing the point StarsintheNight- the toddler didn't mind- his grandmother did!
The very distressing result is that a man like shadowfax's BIL, who has every clearance you can imagine, is scared to help a frightened and lost toddler.

LuannDelaney · 23/11/2014 08:17

worra I'm so sorry! I meant he was fun to give a piggy back, and of course it was a joke, I haven't really got your dad, I'm just sure that he's a very nice man.
I'm really sorry that I posted in such a way that you were upset.

LuannDelaney · 23/11/2014 08:31

Sorry just noticed that it was Chipping not Worra. Sorry Chipping. I didn't mean to cause offence. I just stopped myself from writing about what an arse I made of myself when I lived in a developing country with my dd. She was two, blonde and chubby, she used to get grabbed, stroked, and photographed by strangers everyday. She used to go mad at the strangers and of course I supported her, I just looked like a tosser to every stranger that approached her. When we moved back to the UK for a while, I couldn't believe it that we could do our supermarket shop in peace. It felt so strange to be left alone, as strange as when you go to get in the wrong side of a car, or don't know which way to look before you cross the street.

MrsItsNoworNotatAll · 23/11/2014 09:39

I don't think Yanbu. I am not keen on human beings full stop and one touching my precious offspring would irritate the hell out of me. Fair enough if they'd fallen and someone was kind enough to help them up and comfort them but otherwise keep your mitts away from them! It wouldn't enter my head to ruffle the hair or pinch the cheek of a child that I didn't know.

evalyn · 23/11/2014 09:56

OP here. Thanks for all your thoughts on this. Large majority against me! Definitely most of you think IABVU. Makes me think.

Just help me out here a bit, if you can be bothered. Leave aside 'force majeur', as it were - different things apply, obviously, if I fall down in the street or something, or if I need a paramedic to help me in or out of an ambulance ... circumstances alter cases, and in such occasions (I can think of lots), I'd be positively glad to be touched by a stranger. But, as I say, leaving aside such cases, in general I think I - just on account of being a human being - have the right to not be touched by arbitrary strangers.

Not the biggest deal, sure. Lots of worse things happen. But suppose someone ruffled my hair, saying, ' There's a lovely old GP!' I'd be put out. (I recall my mother, bless her, looking at me hard when someone took on themselves the right to do that when she was disabled and couldn't speak at the end of her life. Well meant, it was; but she hated it. It detracted from what little autonomy she had left. I'm sure you'll all see that; hope so, anyway.)

So, if you agree (of course you may not), that I have this right as an adult not to be touched by strangers, and that my DM also did, here's my question. In what decade of our lives do we gain this right? Children don't have all the rights adults do. That's to/for their benefit. And some rights are achieved gradually, not necessarily overnight, as it were. But, in rough terms, when (and why, of course I'm interested in) do we start having the right? Any suggestions from the (majority of) touchy-feelies?

Sorry a bit long. Sorry also I don't have time to reply personally to everyone. Many thought-provoking comments (along with the usual stupid abuse, got to say, never mind that). Please accept my thanks generally for offering your thoughts.

But just one more thing. I was struck by the number of comments about different cultures. I've lived in many different cultures myself. Touching-related ... I do recall lots of parents asking me, on lots of different occasions, way back, if their children could touch my skin, as they'd never seen one of my coloured-skin before. That was in a very different culture (and quite a long time ago). Of course I always gave permission; and you couldn't get more of a 'strange' in 'stranger' than that. But my autonomy living in that culture was always respected. I do also recall returning from there and feeling how impolite people in Europe were, by contrast! Many cultural differences, indeed (and not just north and south Europe).

Maybe that's a whole different matter. But, well, rights are rights is what I think. And what might be categorised as a 'cultural difference' can still be rights-infringing, no? (I've learned not to give examples of this sort of thing on MN as some readers become unable to follow an argument once there's an example there that takes over their thoughts, IYKWIM. You can surely think of some yourself.)

In short, I'm still not convinced. I think my DGC's autonomy involves a right not to be touched by random strangers, notwithstanding how well-meaning said strangers are, or whatever cultural practices surround touching children. (With the obvious caveat above about force majeure.) I don't like random hair-fluffing now I'm (what I insist on still calling) an OAP ... my old DM never did either ... nor does my DGC. I can keep you away myself, more or less; but my DM couldn't and neither can my DGC; so I sometimes had/have to stick up for their (otherwise impotent) wishes for autonomy. How U is that? And yes, if I'm right and it is U, this has consequences elsewhere for friendliness and acceptable expressive beaviour. 'Rights' considerations often do make for hard choices like this, we're all used to that I hope. But, well, autonomy is very important to us as people - children too, I reckon. There you go, enough from me for now.

OP posts:
ChippingInAutumnLover · 23/11/2014 10:07

The thing is, you are projecting your feelings (and that of your mother's) onto your grandchild. Most babies and small children like to be shown affection and those that don't certainly make it known.

It's nothing like ruffling an adults hair, in the same way as it's not the same when we do other things for and with children.

It's not about an age, it's about if/when the child decides they don't like it and makes that known.

Read MrsDV's post about her DD, until you understand fully, what bodily autonomy really means. Really means and it's not ruffling a child hair or showing affection or interest in another way.

Then stop projecting and allow your DGC to form his own opinions.

WhereTheWildlingsAre · 23/11/2014 10:14

I agree, MrsD's post is very powerful. I also agree that the way we treat children is, by nature, different from adults. I worry for a world where we cannot demonstrate physical affection for a child, a a community, in this way. All because adults project their feelings onto children.

MissLurkalot · 23/11/2014 10:17

But it is obvious that it is you who does not like being touched... I think its a shame you would want the same for your grandchild.
You are projecting your feelings and your mother's feelings onto your little grandchild. Let alone projecting your rude manners into him too, by the way you spoke to the poor woman.
I'm glad you came back and replied. Thanks OP.

spidey66 · 23/11/2014 10:23

I could have been that woman. I often admire babies or chat to toddlers. I'd be horrified if a (grand)parent was that rude to me, and it would certainly put me off speaking to other babies/toddlers. Fortunately the majority of parents appear to be proud when I admire their offspring and are happy to tell me their names/ages etc. Last time was about a week ago when I chatted to a man who had his triplets with him (about 12-18 months I think). He was happy to chat about them even though he must get it a lot with triplets being a novelty.

Pangurban · 23/11/2014 10:23

I wouldn't dream of (wo)manhandling an unknown child in the ordinary course of a day. If one was rushing out onto the road or falling, I would help. Or some case of emergency.

I was on a seat in a shopping centre with my son when he was little. A woman seated the other side of him put her hands on him and started pushing him away along the seat to make way for a man who was joining her. I told her to take her hands off my child. I wouldn't like it if a stranger started pawing at me either.

A smile at a child or a little banter. Not a physical incursion. Crosses the line.

LittleBearPad · 23/11/2014 10:26

Yes but Pang pushing a child out your way is very different to ruffling their hair.

RandallFloyd · 23/11/2014 10:28

Ok, three things jump out at me from that massive post:

  1. you haven't actually taken in any of the responses. You may have seen the words but you haven't actually read them. You can't have, because every point you just made has been responded to many, many times.

  2. you're massively missing the point. Children can and do tell someone if they don't want them to ruffle their hair. Your GC obviously didn't mind. You did. But no one ruffled your hair so that's irrelevant.

  3. you're massively overthinking it.

As human beings we are genetically programmed to feel and display a rush of affection to babies and small children. It's how we ensure our survival as a species. It's instinctive. We do not have the same instincts about adults. I honestly find it incredibly odd that you cannot see the difference.

Actually, make that 4 things:
4) You have absolutely no intention of changing your mind so this whole thread was completely pointless.

insancerre · 23/11/2014 10:29

My dgc?
You don't own another person
That's the nub

Goldmandra · 23/11/2014 10:31

I have this right as an adult not to be touched by strangers, and that my DM also did, here's my question. In what decade of our lives do we gain this right?

I don't think we ever get to an age where we are considered too old for someone to put their hand on our forearm or tap us on the shoulder to gain our attention. It's a different sort of touching for a different age group but it is still an appropriate and effective form of social communication.

Ruffling an elderly lady's hair is inappropriate, not because it is touching but because it is an action that imposes a childlike status on the recipient.

It is, of course, perfectly appropriate that someone should ask permission to touch you in order to satisfy their curiosity about how your skin feels. That is not a form of social communication.

Pagwatch · 23/11/2014 10:34

There are a shockingly high number of posters on here who have decided that the best way to bring up a child is to teach them that human warmth and contact is suspect and needs to be guarded.
What a disconnected, sterile and emotionally constipated world we seem to be creating.

Op. your views about physical contact appear to me something you are choosing to foist on your grandchild so obviously I think you are being unreasonable in wanting him never to be touched, and seemingly seeking to demand that of everyone apart from those toddlers to whom they are related.

But worst of all you are shockingly rude. I hope your modelling such crass manners on him doesn't cause him problems later.

Jill2015 · 23/11/2014 10:42

But worst of all you are shockingly rude. I hope your modelling such crass manners on him doesn't cause him problems later.

Agreed.
Seeing / hearing such bad manners displayed is, in my opinion, more likely to negatively impact the child, than any amount of well meaning admiration or hair ruffling by a passerby.

Anyway OP, I think you have made your mind up, and no amount of opposing views or comments are going to change it. So, pointless thread.