To wonder why how you feed your baby is such an emotive subject?

[Absofrigginlootly]

Currently 3&1/2 weeks into BF my pfb/DD

Have had no end of feeding issues due to tongue tie, poor latch, constant cluster feeding, fractious baby and no sleep (alongside fertility issues, anxious pregnancy and very traumatic delivery)....

At my best moments I am feeling proud of the fact I've kept going so far. DD is putting on weight beautifully and following her centile line exactly. Lots of the daytime she seems happy and content.

At my worst (desperate!) moments (usually 3am when DD has been cluster feeding for hours and is being very fractious and i feel completely EXHAUSTED!) I think about all the advantages of FF (namely being able to share the feeds and have some physical/mental space from her for a while)......

But what stops me?! .....Guilt? Obligation? Self pressure? Desire to do what's deemed "right" or "best" for her?! Reading some of the feeding pages where people talk about expressing off pure blood etc (!) but still keeping going BF part of me reads it and thinks "gosh, why put yourself through it?!" ....but then I'm doing the same! Why.....? I don't know really if I'm honest.

What are your thoughts? Why do women persist despite the difficulties? Societal pressure? Guilt/obligation? And if you decided to FF, how did that make you feel? We're you fine with your decision?

Ps....please don't let this turn into a "breast is best"/ BF vs FF bunfight.....I am just genuinely interested to hear your thoughts, mainly as it may help me understand my own feelings that aim currently struggling with

Thanks :)

The first 8 weeks of my breast feeding journey were just awful. I won't go into all the details but I was always in tears, dreading the next feed etc - I was having regular meltdowns. I rang helplines, had peer supporters round to my house, joined a breast feeding group, saw a lactation consultant and visited a breast feeding co-ordinator, all of which I did to get help to enable me to continue. After about 8-9 weeks of BF hell things just seemed to click.

I was determined to breast feed because I knew it was best for DS and it's what felt natural to me. I exclusively breast fed for 6 months and at 8 months old he still had 4 BF's a day amongst his solids. Like OP said, I do feel proud of myself for pushing through it because on so many occasions I could have given up. For a lot of women BF will come easily but for the rest of us it can be a consuming nightmare and an emotionally and physically difficult time of life.

I haven't read the thread, so my apologies if this has already been covered/ linked to, but I found this article very balanced and helpful when I was going through the same thing.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/04/the-case-against-breast-feeding/307311/

I had massive issues bf my first - horrible pain, monumental cluster feeding, PND and he wasn't gaining weight. Tied myself in knots with the breast is best thing and suffered horrible guilt. a lot of it was self imposed from a kind of perfectionism of wanting the 'best' and some of it came from the tone of hte advice/ other people living in middle class north london.

I switched to formula eventually which I LOVED and then mix fed my second. Because I have a slightly obsessive personality and was probably trying to asuage my own guilt I started reading TONNES of research about breastfeeding, going back to the initial studies and the actual research on the benefits of BF is MUCH weaker than popular opinion/ current advice would suggest. The sibling studies suggest that virtually all of the touted long term outcomes- eg obesity/ IQ/ bonding/ behaviour/ diabetes etc are not actually due to breastfeeding but due to social class. The well designed studies show some small differences in short term outcomes but they amount to very little. Eg a FF baby will probably get one extra tummy bug in the first year of life and may have a slightly increased risk of ear infections. The tummy bugs at least may well be attributable to people making up bottles incorrectly anyway.

I wish I had known this when I was going through the guilt with DS1. I feel as though my own issues wiht BF really spoiled a lot of the first year of motherhood for me and perhaps made me a different mother than I would have been otherwise, but who knows. I wish someone had just told me "it's ok to stop."

Good luck with whatever you decide OP. Motherhood is hard sometimes- it sounds like you are doing a great job and your baby will be absolutely fine and none of this will matter at all in a few years!

A balanced article is 'the case against breastfeeding'?

Yes there are some studies that show a lack of benefit with breastfeeding
And many, many more that show a benefit
Which is why the WHO, UNICEF, NHS, American Academy of Paeds etc encourage breastfeeding
In the UK breastfeeding is associated with wealth and social class, in other countries much less so, e.g. Scandinavia, cunningly enough not all research is done in the UK so is not all tainted by these associations

Breast milk is not just 'milk', it also contains numerous immune factors, which vary according to the microorganisms that the mother comes into contact with, and substances active against cancer. Breastfeeding is also beneficial to mother's health- reduced breast and ovarian cancer, possibly reduced osteoporosis and rheumatoid arthritis I think.

Yes some women are unable to breastfeed and they certainly should not feel any guilt for this (I have read between 1-3% of women are unable to). The number of women who are able to breastfeed but either choose not to or suffer difficulties that could be overcome with education and support is much greater than 3%.

We could help more women to achieve breastfeeding by better education, support, tongue tie diagnosis and treatment, parental leave policies. And also emphasising that breast is the normal food for babies, and formula carries risks.

Also the WHO lists formula as the fourth feeding option, not the second best. Expressed BM by the mother and donated breast milk (either wet nursing or in bottles) is recommended above formula. Yet many recoil at the idea of donated breast milk or a woman nursing her sister's/ friend's/ daughter's baby. Why is this?

Who make their recommendations for third world babies as well as babies in developed countries so of course they would.

Risks of ffing are tiny in this country and we are all well aware of them but still choose to ff- no further scaremongering necessary thanks.

Very few babies are ebf in this country and the vast majority have both formula and bm and have done got many years.

The fact is in this country we are lucky enough to have oodles of parenting choices and "bests" ff/bm is but one of those.Sorry.Personally I'd like a little more airtime and concern re what babies/toddlers are weaned onto,the exercise they get and the hours of screen time they waste.The latter 3 being far more worthy of worry imvho but hey oh it's horses for courses.

Milk pudding

Don't have time to respond in detail to your regurgitated lacticivist twist on the issue just wanted to ask you something - your comment that the 1-3 percent of women who you belive genuinely cannot breastfeed should 'certainly not feel guilty' ( thank you for making that clear )Do I take it that the others who choose to ff , for what ever reason , even if you think it's not a very good one, probably should. A bit.

Just to say in support of bf - my family, going back generations, had only the slightest hint of allergies (a few developed coeliac type symptoms at retirement age or thereabouts).

I was the first to be formula fed, and developed severe asthma, eczema, and coeliac disease at the age of two. I couldn't run around and play like my friends could, I couldn't sit on the grass, wear shorts in the summer or make-up when I got older. I couldn't eat the same foods as other people, and avoided birthday parties etc because it was just embarrassing. The heavy doses of oral steroids to try to control the asthma stunted my growth and every cold resulted in a chest infection that left me in bed for days. Even as an adult, I am still on the strongest inhaled steroids they have.

Perhaps I'd have got that lot anyway - perhaps not. The evidence suggests perhaps not, but no guarantee. I'm bf my children, to give them a fighting chance of a childhood without quite as many allergies as I had. It's not lactivist, or any other random term, it's not judging other people either (different circumstances, they can do what they like!!!), it's no different from buying a house near a good school really.

By contrast Dp's family bf until 2,ditto my fathers.Due to difficulties mothers ff as did my mother and I.

There is zero cancer on my mother and maternal grandmothers side or allergies.Interestingly Dp's mother and maternal grandmother bother have had cancer(as have other family members). It's allergy city on my dad's side of the family. Buggar all allergies down my mother's line.

There have been studies linking bfing to allergies and studies/advice saying bfeeding neither causes or prevents allergies- of course they don't get seized on or over inflated in the same way.

I think the problem is highlighted on here ver well

BF mums who continue to tout the risks of FF - how they overcome hardship to co to ie because it was best etc - make FF mums feel like they obviously haven't tried hard enough, didn't care enough as then etc (I know that this intentional on most parts)
Conversely FF mums annoy BF mums because they too (obviously) have well fed, thronging babies - and when people are struggling with BF it is easy for these mums to say "switch to formula" or "I can't believe your still doing it"

Jealousy on both parts - as someone else said- get over yourselves on both sides - who cares as long as babies are fed and thriving. Guilt serves no purposes nor does the superior mum attitude. And fwiw I am all for people persevering through hardship but never judge someone else's journey by the standards of your own - I think there is. Saying which says. 'Those who are rearing should be sparing".

Sorry - I should have said - I know that BF mums are not intentionally trying to make FF mums feel bad and vice versa - well MOST anyway

There's always a few posts that seem to come along with a list of stats etc which can't seem to quite be substantiated.... And yes I feel it's a shame when this happens on a thread.

I exclusively ff because I chose to....I'm afraid I don't really fit some of the 'criteria' either being a reasonably educated woman in my late thirties....living comfortably....

I hate the 'can't understand someone not even trying' comments.

Don't try to ....just accept we are all different.

I 100% agree that breast milk is nutritionally better for babies. That much is clear.

I find the whole topic very interesting. I FF both my babies, DS from day 4 and DD from day 10. I didn't enjoy it one bit, found the whole positioning of babies a complete nightmare especially following c-sections on both occasions. The majority of my friends breastfed, for different lengths of time, pretty much none of them did it without issues. I very much admire those who preserver through difficulties, to be honest, I find the whole newborn time stressful enough without struggling to feed.

I feel it's so emotive because FF is thought of as such a poor alternative to breast milk and I don't agree with the snobbery around it. My sister was diagnosed with bowel cancer 7 days after her 2nd baby, and had to stop BF to begin treatment - FF is the only alternative realistic option for her.

I don't feel anyone should persevere with BF at the detriment to their enjoyment of their baby or general well being. I genuinely don't feel the long term gains are important enough.

I didn't plan to bf very long. The thought of it creeped me out a bit. I thought I would just do colostrum. But something in me clicked when I started and despite a few early bumps, pot latch, weight loss etc and a couple of formula feeds in the first few days I ended up exclusively bf in the first 10 weeks, then mixed fed for till 8 months ( dispelling yet another myth the mixed feeding is the beginning of the end of bf).

Anyway my child had severe eczema and multiple severe allergies ( not to milk though).
Do I think if I had done anything different he would have been different? Err no - it's largely genetic. I have eczema as does my husband so he didn't stand a chance.

I bf largely because I enjoyed it. It felt right for me. I don't think it is absolutely essential.
Maybe those antibodies are more important if you are living in a mud hut somewhere with less access to clean water etc. But in the west I reckon it's just a bit of a bonus.

So sorry I still stick by the mantra whatever works for you.

Think the breast is best is pushed far too much and there's not enough support when you're actually doing it! I didn't find it natural, convenient- any of the things my midwife and every leaflet/book said it would be. Experience with dd was horrific and I felt guilty for a long time as I thought it was my fault. If it's so natural why couldn't I do it, why was I in pain, why couldn't dd latch? it got to the point that I felt so unsupported I just wanted her to eat! Ds, on the other hand, fed well, latched straight after birth but turned to ff after 2 days due to health reasons. It was lovely and I will cherish those two days I got to feed him myself.

I think hormones have a awful lot to do with it, plus the weird competitive thing which comes out in new parents sometimes.

I'm very supportive of breastfeeding when it's working for the mother and baby. However, we have to accept that when everything is taken into account (including the mental health of the mother) it's not always best overall. We're extremely fortunate that we have formula and that it offers a very valid alternative to breast milk. When my friend was desperate to breastfeed her baby I saw her health gradually decline and had a discussion with her about the possibility of mix-feeding or making a total move to formula. I'm not arrogant enough to say I 'gave her permission' to give formula, but I do think it helped her to talk it through with another mother. In the end she did give a bottle of formula or two which gave her the break she needed. She's still breastfeeding at over 1 year.

The fact is that breastfeeding is wonderful if it goes well and feels like a huge achievement if it doesn't in the beginning but we fight through the issue. However, it's not the be all and end all of parenting.

I wish someone had just told me "it's ok to stop."

Exactly. It's sad that this is exactly what so many women need, because to pressure to breast feed is so all-consuming.

It shouldn't be like this.

On the allergies point, no one knows what triggers allergies.

As far as I'm aware, the only thing that's proven is a genetic link, which shows that allergic parents are more likely to produce allergic children.

Other than that, I think it's safe to say medical science doesn't have a conclusive position on how to prevent or cause allergies. It's much more complex than what food a baby gets, and it's tied in to a poorly understood picture of the development of the immune system including exposure to viruses, antibiotics and bacteria in childhood.

And the WHO guidelines about breastfeeding relate primarily to preventing water-born disease caused by making formula with dirty water. And possibly trying to balance out the effect of voracious formula marketing campaigns.

I think if we're having a discussion about guilt it's important to recognise that incorrect facts and misinterpreted guidelines are a large part of what causes the guilt.

Interestingly, when I asked about ff at my antenatal class I was told that they can't give advice to the whole class, they would have to tell me individually. I have no idea why, I assume that although bf isn't easy to get right it's hard to hurt the baby doing it (other than starving the baby if not enough milk is getting into them) whereas with ff the risk of contamination if sterilisation etc procedures aren't followed is higher. Not sure.

japanese margaret someone told me it was ok to stop. It really wasn't ok. I regretted it hugely later. What they should have done is show me how to position my baby so I wasn't in pain. I only found that out when I was on my second baby.

There is no way that the question of feeding your baby can't be emotive! It is all tied up with so many influences; your upbringing, previous experiences, body image, your health, your family's opinions, your friends, society, the kind of mother you want to be - and lactation starts in most women after giving birth whether they are planning to bf or not - along with all the attendant hormones. reducing it to a simple choice between bf and ff, as if every woman can just choose from a menu and that's that, is not realistic. Judging anyone for how they navigate all that is daft.

Mmmmm " the kind of mother they want to be ? ". Not sure what you mean by this princess. And fwiw the advice given to you is the same as people tell bf mums who are starving their baby to keep going it will be ok

A few months ago a group of some of my friends and I all went out to lunch. We are all colleagues and on maternity leave. At the time one of the babies was 6 weeks old, two of them were 6 months old, there was an 8 month old and an 11 month old. Out of the five of us four of us were breast feeding and at one point during the meal all 4 of us were sat breast feeding at the same time whilst the other mother bottle fed her baby. After the meal my FF colleague said she had felt very uncomfortable in our company because she'd FF and she said she almost embarrassed about not breast feeding.

Two weeks ago I went out with a group of six women from my baby sensory class (all babies were aged between 6-9 months) and of the 6 of us I was the only one breast feeding. When it came to 'lunchtime' for the babies and everyone else got their bottles and formula out I felt uncomfortable and embarrassed that I was BF. I felt like an outsider and that I didn't 'belong' with them.

I guess it shows your damned if you do and damned if you don't. And that maybe your social circles and influences can have a huge impact on feeding decisions.

the kind of mother you want to be

I always wanted to be a shit mother.

I think it's emotive because it is important. At least it was important to me that I aced BFing and yes the early days were tough but now she's 18 months, still BFing and I am SO pleased I carried on. Not only because it's best for both of us health wise but because it was so easy and I'm kinda lazy. Wapping out a boob to feed her rather than faffing on with bottles was immensely convenient and it always puzzles me that FF is seen as the easy option. Arsing about with bottles and hot water in the Middle of the night? Screw that!

I think it's also emotive when BFing doesn't work out for mums. There's so many bun fights on here and I really wish people would take their anger out on the shitty support that litters our postnatal services rather than other mums. If I wasn't so bloody minded I'd have given up BFing in the first week because I was given conflicting advice and kept having formula shoved in my face by HCPs. I hear of so many women who were advised by a HCPS that their milk was drying up at 6 weeks when actually their baby was most likely going through a growth spurt. It's astonishing how so many get it wrong.

It's the only thing I know of where the patients blame themselves when in fact they're let down perpetually by professionals. If a doctor cocked up your treatment or a nurse gave you incorrect advice on how to heal an injury, you wouldn't beat yourself up over it. yet BFing seems to be the anomaly where women have been led to believe that they can't trust in their own bodies.

I think a mix of bad support and formula marketing has resulted in low BFing rates (and yes it does matter as it costs the NHS £40million a year) and I wish people would get angry at those who are actually to blame rather than thinking the problem lies with themselves. It doesn't and no woman should ever feel that way.

PS women should be proud of BFing because it's fucking hard going. They should also be proud of giving birth, wether it was drug free or drugged up to the eyeballs. Because it's also fucking hard going. It pains me to see people say women shouldn't be proud of something 'because it's natural'. Fuck off, you just sound spiteful, natural doesn't equal easy.

Ok I'm proud of my potty,reading and sleep training skills. All 3 hard.

All 3 sleeping right through by 6 months,reading by 5 and dry by 2.

Clearly I deserve a medal.

Pregnancy is hard too.Do I get a medal for carry twins full term and getting through HG drug free too?

Obviously all the above will outweigh my weak inability to bf.

yes because my post specifically said women were only allowed to be proud of BFing and giving birth. Pardon me for not including an exhaustive list of what individuals should feel proud of.

Disclaimer: if you found it hard work and did your hardest then you should be proud of yourself. Whatever it is. So yes I do think you should be proud of all that Petit. It fucks me off to hear people say women shouldn't be proud of breastfeeding, or this or that or anything else they found a challenge. It's enforced martyrism and just smacks of spite.

Maybe work on getting that chip off your shoulder rather than misinterpreting what people are saying and assume they must be talking about what you feel you 'failed' at?