To wonder why ANYONE thinks that this is acceptable in a game?

[joshandjamie]

I am not a fan of violent games at the best of times, but apparently now in Grand Theft Auto 5's new upgrade you can have first person sex with a prostitute before shooting her in the head. With real sex noises. You can see a delightful clip here

I think anyone who plays this is sick. But I know that there are kids in my ten year old's class who have this game. Do the parents even know that they can do this???? I cannot believe any parent would be happy letting their kid or teen play this.

Ooh I'm a gamer

Good points, Bulbasaur.

Shit, am I on the more conservative side of this thread now?

Yeah, i watched Anita's videos and she just sounds like a div to me. It's not hard to understand the reasons why, of course I do. I just find it stupid. It's not real. People read too far into things. it's a game. Who cares if she doesn't want to do it? it's not a real woman.
Like, this is ONE thing that gets me is, women don't like it when they're told they can't wear something, but as soon as a dude lands on a damn comet and comes on TV wearing a shirt with naked women on it, he's completely attacked. the shirt was made by his friend who is a woman, she designed it. It's her creation. He just wore it. It was a gift.
Also, beyonetta. in the gaming industry, they'll be told "MAKE A WOMAN!" and then the character designer will then go away and they will draw out what they want that character to look like and they look like that because of certain reasons. Most of the time, say with beyonetta, they know that people will buy it because it's a good game. People like seeing boobs, men and women. Big audience. But that person who designed that with the audience in mind is a woman. They're not real women. They're not accurate representations of women, they're fake, unrealistic & fantasy. If they were trying to say "ermagerrd women look lyk disss" which they're NOT, then yeah it would be off. but they're fake. They're animated. They're not real. Why do people care so much -.-

I find it interesting and a bit one sided that there are no male prostitutes in this though...

Not really a big audience to be fair, but I bet if there was a big enough call for male prostitutes, Rockstar are cool as hell, and they would bring out a patch for that, but to be fair, as the prostitutes aren't part of the game and are only a little tiny thing you can do in a sandbox game, they probably wouldn't as it's not part of any quest to have sex with a prostitute afaik. You don't HAVE to do it.

You could argue that none of the characters are gay or female but considering that you can be completely out of character in free roam it's quite flimsy. Really I think it's because that tiny aspect only ever gets enough work to provoke outrage.

can have a female avatar. Ah, I don't know. Games are weird. I'll go back to setting Sims on fire.

Also, beyonetta. in the gaming industry, they'll be told "MAKE A WOMAN!" and then the character designer will then go away and they will draw out what they want that character to look like and they look like that because of certain reasons.

You have no idea how the gaming industry works. Stop pretending you do.

I work in media and entertainment, that is not how things go down. An artist doesn't just draw something and that's how it is. It goes through multiple, multiple, multiple, revisions. It has to pass through the board of directors, the stock brokers, the production company who is funding your game, the list goes on. After that it still gets tweaked during the 3D modeling stage. I can promise you that Beyonetta in the game is not the original concept.

So to say a woman designed it, so it's all cool is a stupid argument. A woman was on the team and the lead for that character design, but she did not have the final say. She was simply the lead on that team.

Owl

You can gratuitously shoot whoever you like in the game so it wouldn't make any difference, no.

"People like seeing boobs, men and women"

Huh? And just... huh?

Not really, as a heterosexual woman, and for my personal taste, I like seeing well muscled gorgeous young men. I would imagine that large swathes of gay men would go along with that preference.

I don't like seeing boobs at all. In fact in some circumstances, I hate seeing boobs, like Page 3.

What an idiotic comment. Why on earth did you say that?

fickle I think that point was made with the "rape mod" as well that you couldn't "rape" male avatars only female ones. Those kind of points are certainly interesting.

Personally I like games, I play and have played a few, and if I find them sexist then I stop. I also feel that some of these companies put stuff is as a "fuck you" really to female gamers, like well you can play if you really must but we're going to put stuff in that reminds you that this is not really your place to be. Much like many other things in that respect, or at least how they used to be, thinking about it.

I've skimmed this thread but not read it fully so apologies if this is a repeat.

I watched this last night and was horrified. Which surprised not only DH, who had to listen to me rant for an hour, but me as well, as I don't normally get worked up about this sort of thing. Not that I don't care, but that I tend to see it as one more straw in a very big haystack.

But this, it's AWFUL. I tried to work out why I felt so angry about it, and this is where I got to:

It's that it's presenting something that is real and terrible as part of a game that is built for pleasure.

I understand that there are all sorts of 'terrible' things you can do in GTA and games in general. I'm not personally of the opinion that doing violent things in a game will make you do violent things in real life, and I do see how a game like GTA is fun. But I also think that a society's ideas about what's 'normal' and 'ok' come from the stories it tells itself.

So here we are in GTA world, and one of the naughty desires you get to act out is shooting a prostitute in the head. And it's NOT 'just shooting someone'. It's shooting a prostitute. She's being a prostitute. She is shot WHILE being a prostitute.

Let's not pretend that one of the biggest risks to prostitutes, and women in general, isn't men. If you're a woman (especially a prostitute) and you're going to die violently, it is likely going to be at the hands of a man, and you are likely to have had no real hand in your fate. It's not going to be any kind of fair fight, it's not going to be because you shot first. It's going to be because a man decided to kill you. For street prostitutes, often already some of the weakest in a society, this is a genuine and ever-present risk.

Yet here, this terrible fact of the real world is presented as an enjoyable part of a game. The argument is 'it's not real'. But it is real. It happens all the time in exactly this way and it's awful.

Obviously, other people get shot in real life all the time too. And that also happens in GTA. But the relation between shooter and shootee is nowhere near as clear. It's not picking off a specifically weak member of society. What this looks like, to me, is as though there were the possibility to lynch black people in the game. To do the thing that was/is really and horrifically done to a segment of society, purely because of what they were, but 'just for fun'. I'm fairly certain we won't ever see that game, and yet I don't really see how this is different.

I agree with you that children shouldn't be playing this and goodness knows why parents let their kids do it. My aunt has let my 8 year old cousin play some 18 games as they didn't seem as bad as some others which may be true, but still not appropriate for an 8 year old. If he as a 15 year old then maybe she'd make a call on his maturity levels but an 8 year old? I went to their house once and he said it didn't matter if his Mum didn't let him download the games/buy them as he plays them as x's house. I know I sound old and miserable but I'm only 24. I remember playing the first GTA when I was 10 and yes I thought nothing of it to be honest as I played it at a friends house so even then it wasn't monitored (it was on the computer mind you, not a console).

As for adults playing it? Eh, I am in two minds. If that's what you like then that's what you like and an adult should be able to discern the difference between real life and fantasy and I know the argument would definitely be for me why would someone even want to simulate having sex with a prostitute and killing her? I don't know the answer to that question, because I am not part of that group.

Personally I don't play those kind of games or at least, not with 'real' people iyswim. I've played games where zombies or vampires or monster blobs have been killed but in the understanding they are the enemy and want to destroy us in gameplay. I think it's definitely a grey area.

Can I understand why someone might want to pretend to kill someone? Sure - if they are highly stressed and hate someone I'd much rather them get enjoyment out of pretending to kill someone than punching said person in the face or some such.

Can I understand why someone might want to pretend to sleep with a prostitute? Not exactly a prostitute, but maybe a 'naughty' woman who takes control or something if that's your 'thing'.

I can't see why you'd put the two together though.

I much prefer horror based games if I was to play a game, or a sports based game. So Silent Hill, FIFA, Resident Evil etc - but I've only played games even like this maybe once a year?

So in summary I say each to their own but some things just make my mind boggle and definitely no to children having video games of that ilk. I know it sounds hypocritical as I played them at 10 but it wasn't something my parents purchased me and it wasn't something I specifically asked to play and to be fair I just sped around a lot although I did run over people but that wasn't the reason I played it I liked the speeding through town being chased bit.

Anyway that's my little speech over.

its not a new issue the game has been around for years, but yes it is appalling.

But I also think that a society's ideas about what's 'normal' and 'ok' come from the stories it tells itself.

Yes grumbleina - I think the story that is being told here is that a certain kind of person is fair game. 'Slags' get what is coming to them.

You can kill who you like in GTA, most people who play will kill mostly policemen, other criminals and a ton of innocent pedestrian mown down as they try and beat the clock on some drug run from one end of town to the other, or career around trying to lose their police 'wanted' level. It's not the game that's telling the story about "slags getting what's coming to them", it's whoever made the clip.

You could shoot a fast food clerk after they've served you and recoup your money, I really dislike that there are prostitutes in game but you're never pushed to kill them, that's on the player if they choose to.

Completely agree merrymouse. And I know it's not just this game that says it, but given how successful and popular it is, I just find it really gross.

I completely get that you can kill whoever you like and it's not that killing a prostitute is a stated aim. But why include it as a possibility, when it's so offensive? I mean, maybe they do have this, but I suspect not - do they have people in specific religious attire wandering around that you can get a sermon from and then kill?

But why include it as a possibility, when it's so offensive?
I wish they didn't. The cynic in me says it's for the outrage/publicity. It adds nothing to the gameplay. Maybe that makes the popularity easier to swallow? There is an enormously well put together game, which is the draw, people aren't buying it because they want to play Prostitute Murder Simulator 2014.

Ugh... DS has this on his Christmas list. He will be 18 this Christmas, but he has ASD and presents as younger than his peers. He could just go and buy it himself but he hates to handle money, so it will be on me to buy it. I think I need to do some more research on it first though...

GatoradeMeBitch: www.commonsensemedia.org/game-reviews/grand-theft-auto-v

I wouldn't have this in the house. No way.

I think probably the inclusion of prostitution in the game is the crux isn't it.

Clearly you can kill anyone men women walking around whatever. And I don't think people would be upset about that (and if they did it would be because of the general violence).

The ability to pay for sex in a game as just something you can do I guess is what the difference is and to then be able to shoot her is just the icing on the cake.

But then I think sexual violence / porn / paid for sex is becoming a staple of standard entertainment. And I suspect people will say it's awful and it will get worse and then the next thing will be even worse (what will it be?) and everyone will move on from the sexual violence stuff and get upset about the paedophilia or cannibalism or male on male graphic rape or whatever they need to do next to be "edgy" and court controversy.

I think I have a better understanding of GTA now, but I still think it's not for me. I really just don't get why you would want to simulate having sex with a prostitute and then shoot her in the head. However I think this has gone a bit off track - this game is 18 rated yes, but it does appeal to teens (deliberately so in some cases IMO) and under 18s do end up playing them.

On a side note I'm tempted to start up a gaming thread now, never knew so many mumsnetters were gamers!

JCDenton - I'm inclined to agree, that it's at least in part a publicity thing. I mean, I don't think it's because a lot of people are thinking 'you know what I want from a game? I wanna SHOOT HOOKERS' - I don't think it's about demand. I also don't think it's because the makers of the game have anything against prostitutes.

What I think sucks though, is that the murder of prostitutes is seen as a good 'offensive but not TOO offensive' line. Like, 'going to get publicity but not actually going to dent sales' offensive.

In other words, everyone knows it's bad, but everyone also knows that it nobody will REALLY mind. I'm STILL SO ANGRY.

And Seven - yes. Paying women to pretend to enjoy sex, as a standard light entertainment option.

Interesting if we ever get paedophilia as a 'shock/entertainment' option. Doubt it, somehow.

The average gamer is in their thirties, married, with a family. Oh and almost half are women. So the stereotype of a loner with no social skills is both incorrect and insulting quite frankly.

As for the game itself, it's wonderful escapism, in the same way one might read a book and get immersed in the characters and plot.

As for prostitutes, yes they're in the game however you specifically have to look for them, they are not integral to the plot (well one is but you kill the guy not her) and by putting the ability to do something like that causes controversy and takes away from the achievements of the game.

It's a game for adults, hence the 18 rating, if there's parents out there letting their children play this well they need their heads examining.

I think Call of Duty gloriefies war and violence, but I wouldn't call for it to be banned.

Like everything else in life, if you don't like something don't buy it. But unless you've played the game, I don't think complaints will be taken seriously, it's like me saying that 50 shades of Grey is abusive, I've not read the books so how can I have that opinion? I haven't formed it myself, I haven't thought for myself.