To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

I disagree. I am saying that a woman who is vulnerable (intoxicated, alone, in an unfamiliar place or for any other reason) is easier to isolate and then rape, than a woman who is aware of her surroundings, with friends who will notice if someone is watching her, if she's uncomfortable or takes too long in the toilet, will walk her back to her car, etc.

I don't think lougle is victim blaming at all.
People are equating personal responsibility to victim blaming when it's not.

the girls made a series of bad choices (lying, drinking, going out). They were not responsible for being raped. They were responsible for the choices they made, we are all responsible for the choices we make.

We are doing our daughters no favours if we don't help them recognise that some choices make us more vulnerable to danger than others. We can't control all of the dangerous situations out there, but surely it's not victim blaming to say that some choices leave us more vulnerable? I don't cross a local park late at night because there is no lighting at all, I take a slightly longer route home. The other week I was out with friends and after a few I took the shortcut through the park. It was fine - but I am very aware that my judgment around my own personal safety was impaired that night and I did something that, when sober, I judge to be risky. Of course I SHOULD be able to safely walk across the park at night, sober or drunk - but don't live in a world where that is the case.

using dingles example

lying to your parents as to where you are .. personal responsibility to let people know where you are
drinking underage - personal responsibility by 15 you know what alcohol is and how it should be used
going back to a house with strangers - personal responsibility at 15 you should know not to go off with strangers

men rape girls - totally outwith the girls control .. they are the victim

although they were wrong to do the things above the men still had a choice not to rape the girls .. that's the mens responsibility not the girls

totally agree with you frasersmummy the rape is totally the responsibility of the men involved. It's likely that those men would have raped some other girls had dn and her friends not been around.

The blame is always with the perpetrator, always with the rapist. but we have a responsibility to our daughters to point out that some behaviours are riskier than others.

They got raped because they happened to be in the company of rapists.

Not because they crept out
Not because they lied

Of course they wouldn't have been raped if they stayed at home, but someone would have been raped. Because 2 rapists were looking for their next victims.

The men would still have raped, because staying in doesn't prevent rapes. Not being a rapist does.

my empire .. I never said any of the things the girls did was partially responsible for what happened

I was pointing out examples of personal responsibility and I was pointing out that despite what choice the girls made the perpetrator had a personal responsibility to do the right thing and not attack those young vulnerable girls

I have slept in a bed with a friend I've previously had sex with.

He didn't rape me because he wasn't a rapist.

I have got blind drunk around a man I had snogged several times and very much fancied.

He made sure friends took me home because he wasn't a rapist.

I have shared a sleeping bag with someone I met in a bar on holiday.

He didn't rape me because he wasn't a rapist.

I have shared a bed with a friend of a friend at a party.

He didn't rape me because he wasn't a rapist.

Oh, and do you know what? I didn't sexually assault any of those men either, because I am not a criminal.

Do you know "why" my cousin got raped? Because she went camping with her steady boyfriend, he got drunk, and he raped her. Why? Oh yeah, he was a rapist.

Are women 'responsible' for preventing rape? Is that what people are trying to say?

Of course we are. Come on, MEOD, we all know really, that men cannot control themselves around women & we have to make sure we aren't too pretty/young/vulnerable etc! We all we push them to the point where they can't stop..

/end sarcasm

(I really really DO NOT think that)

I haven't been raped. That isn't because I haven't been in a situation where it might have happened, (ran a crowded pub by myself, walked home at night - both by myself & with a guy I worked with, (but barely knew), stayed at a friends house when males that I didn't know well where there, been in the same building, by myself, with a man I barely knew, been drunk, wore a little less clothing than I should, kissed a man etc etc) it is because I WAS NEVER IN THE COMPANY OF A RAPIST.

I think I'd compare it to hugging.

She knows about sex, so saying he forced her to have sex. That sex is nice and feels good when you like the other person and you both want sex.

But that is it different if it is a stranger, or when she doesn't want it, or both.

Would she want an adult she doesn't know and trust to hug her? If someone did what would she do? She would tell mummy and daddy and they would call the police. It doesn't matter if the hug is a bear hug that hurts or a normal hug, if she doesn't want to be hugged then she has the right to say 'no'.

MyEmpire - If you have teenage DD (or imagining you did have) do you or have you given them any advice about staying safe with going out to/coming home from pubs/clubs?

If so, what advice did you give them?

There is a huge difference between:

1. Safety advice that assumes that there are bad people out there who may do bad things to innocent people given a chance - the onus of blame being entirely on those wrongdoers.

1. The idea that it is the personal responsibility of innocent people to take precautions to 'defend' themselves from bad people - and that not behaving in accordance with this advice makes the wrong somehow the victim's fault.

Many frankly stupid posts on this thread confuse the two.

I don't see any victim blaming on this thread (my deleted post could have been interpreted that way, but wasn't meant to be at all).

No-one is saying that Dingle's niece CAUSED the man to rape her. He would have raped irrespective of what she did or didn't do that night. But he wouldn't have raped her.

Maybe it would help the debate if we looked at a different form of assault - say mugging. No-one would ever blame someone for being mugged, and no-one I hope would claim that wandering down a dimly lit street at night holding an iPhone 6 in full view CAUSED a mugger to attack their victim. But if the victim had taken another route home and kept their phone in their pocket quite possibly they would have avoided being mugged that night. And that's NOT victim blaming. Is it?

titchy - I don't think the mugging example is victim blaming either. But according to a few posters on this thread, apparently it is.

I actually think your dd is way too young for that, why is your 9 year old so clued up on sex?