To have no idea how to explain to my 9 year old DD what The Rapist Ched Evans did

[Hoppinggreen]

DD has obviously picked up some snippets about this and has asked what happened. She does know about sex but we haven't discussed what rape is and I don't know his to explain why the victim went to the hotel and what went on from there. I don't want to victim blame but I do want to perhaps talk to her about personal safety.
I also want to make the point that what The Rapist and his apologists are doing now is wrong and how Jessica Ennis ( who she worships) has done a great thing by condemning Sheffield utds actions.
Any suggestions?

Are they blamed in court as part of the defence?

No merrymouse I am thinking of "social" blaming - which is bad enough but obviously not to be compared with what you are talking about.

Yes, routinely.

I saw several victim blaming posts earlier - talking about a poster's niece and her friend who lied to their parents, went out, drank and were raped. "If they had not done that, they wouldn't have been raped" - this is victim blaming.

My friend has (this year) been through a rape case in court - raped by her ex-partner in her home. She was asked why she had not tried to fight him off, why she didn't run away, and, unbelievably, "why didn't you run into your daughter's room for help? Surely he'd have stopped if you'd have done that"

Her daughter was 11 years old at the time. She was terrified of this man - as if she'd put her daughter in harm's way?!

Victim blaming takes place both in court and in wider society.

Hi everyone,

This feels like a good moment to highlight our We Believe You campaign.

Thanks Kate. I'd like to make it clear that I agree with the We Believe You campaign. I don't think that precludes discussion around the subject of rape, though.

Of course this is an emotive subject - but the lack of logic in some of the postings does not help our case to blame rapists for rape or further the 'we believe you' campaign.

• the only person responsible for theft is the thief
• the only person responsible for murder is the murderer
• the only person responsible for rape is the rapist

any one of us could be victim of any of these. It is not victim blaming to suggest that some behaviours make us more vulnerable than others, it is common sense.

The point of the people arguing against my line of discussion, Dingle is that whilst you could rape is unique because you can't hide the fact that you have a vagina and to excuse yourself from the presence of any male would be impossible and as statistics show that you are most likely to be raped by someone you know, avoiding strange men wouldn't go far enough to avoid the risk.

I disagree with some of the finer detail, but can see that if you think that, then it is a travesty to victims of rape to suggest that if they did something different they could have reduced their risk of rape.

I don't think it is illogical. I think it is logical if you accept the initial premises as fact. I just think those initial premises are flawed.

Having sex with someone that is too drunk to consent is rape.
Binary

Being too drunk is not binary. There is a continuum between unconscious and impaired judgement and sober.

Just look at that recent 'awful things I've done whilst drunk' thread. Some of those stories sounded like rape to me - men having sex with women who were unable to give proper consent. Others sounded like poor judgement under the influence of alcohol. I am sure that we could not all agree which story fell each side. And therefore in some situations there is nuance. And that is not victim blaming or against the tenets of I believe you. Encouraging our children, boys or girls, not to get into a situation where their judgement is so impaired that they are at risk, is surely sensible?

What a horrid, horrid, victim blaming thread.

I really don't know where to begin.

Once again (because it is worth repeating) you do all know that Ched Evans had NO idea what condition his victim was in, don't you?

Saying if "she hadn't been drunk" etc...well Ched had no idea. He just responded to a text saying his mate had 'got a bird' and he turned his taxi around with the intent of having sex with her.

So how can it have been her condition/vulnerability that "got her raped"?

It wasn't...quite simply...a rapist raped her. Her condition had nothing to do with it. And yes, I believe that she still would have been raped by him if sober, but it would have been due to coercion, or being restrained so she couldn't object.

Rape happens because rapists rape. Not because their victims somehow caused them to do it.

The vast majority of the posts on here are not about that rapist or the woman that he raped. The discussion has broadened since the original post.

My question was not about Ched Evans' conduct (he was convicted by a jury. Good enough for me). My question was whether Mcdonald would have sent that text (which he claims was an information text with no intention of action on Evans' part but either way, it's been accepted that it prompted the arrival of Evans) and if he had, whether she would have been more aware of her danger, either then or later.

None of which would have made his actions any the less his responsibility

It's a thread about Ched Evans.
It's a thread about a victim who was drunk
It's been heavily implied that she is at fault for her rape
There have been posts saying that had she not been drunk, she may have been able to refuse

Ergo, this is a thread about Ched Evans & his victim, so I have every right to write what I did, regardless of the direction of the thread.

I think he would have, yes.
And Ched would still have raped her, only it would have been 1] more physically forced, i.e they would have restrained her or 2] coercion.

And why would she have been more aware of her 'danger'? Unless she read that text, she had NO WAY of knowing the content of it, and that Ched would be along to rape her.

But still, implying there that she wasn't suitable aware of her danger, due to being drunk, is just more victim blaming.

If she was aware of her danger..what then? She could have left?
So because she wasn't aware of her danger, she couldn't leave, ergo, it's partially her fault.

If you don't mean these things, you really really need to be aware of what you are saying & how your posts are coming across. You don't have to shout "IT WAS HER FAULT" to be victim blaming. It can be very subtle.

YY heebiejeebie

The problem with victim blaming, as well as it being repulsive and disgusting is that it is utterly stupid.

Since women are raped by strangers, friends, family and acquaintances... they have to avoid being out alone AND having someone walk them home AND taking a cab AND being at home. They have to avoid drinking altogether because they don't know which person they are with (home, out, friend's house) might be a rapist and therefore can never drink. But lots of women are raped sober so that won't actually do anything. They can't flirt and wear skimpy clothes because that is an invitation but they can't dress modestly and avoid flirting because that makes them a cold, hard bitch who needs to be taught a lesson. They can't have a father, brother, friends who are male, date, husband, male co-workers or any males around them because all of them could be an issue. However, live alone and you'd better be careful because you are a target. Don't carry a weapon because it could get used against you. But you have to fight back. Or not because you might get 'hurt', you know really hurt. Oh and don't be poor, a woman of colour, live in a war zone, marry anyone or stand up for anything.

Or, we could expect people to both have ongoing, enthusiastic consent for sex. Wow, that's a much shorter paragraph.

You can give personal safety advice to children and adults of both sexes without needing to connect it to a rape case where victim blaming was part of the defence.

The more appropriate connection to make in this case would be to teach children about consent.