To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

It's an Ofsted thing - schools have to promote British Values, this is your school's way of doing that. It's another fad, it'll come full circle and go away as quickly as it came in.

I'm a teacher in Wales. As part of our Remembrance Service we sang both the Welsh and British anthems. This sparked a bit of debate in my sixth form lesson which followed - everyone was happy to sing the Welsh anthem, but some (myself included, actually) felt some discomfort with GSTQ. In some cases (mine for one) a lot if this was to do with republican views, but there was also a feeling that, because England doesn't have its own anthem, GTSQ feels like the English anthem, not a British one. I would definitely feel happier if it felt less English (I still wouldn't want to sing about the Queen though). This may be irrational, but it is how some people feel - don't just dismiss it.
I also think it's nuts to ask why someone lives in a country they aren't proud of - we all have to live somewhere! Why would moving make anyone more proud?

@Chippinginautumnlover

"Please save hard"

To clarify you want me to leave the country just because I do not like the country's national anthem.

As over-reactions go that is a pretty big one.

This anthem, which you hold in such high regard, and think everyone should be forced to sing actually has these words in:

Lord, make the nations see
That men should brothers be,
And from one family
The wide world o'e

Your comments are not very brotherly are they? This leads me to conclude that either you glibly sing the anthem without considering its meaning, or you know the meaning and sing a song that you disagree with.

Just for the record when I leave England I will still be residing in the British Isles. My family are from Jersey and I was only born in England as my dad (who has now buggered off back to France) was foolish enough to move here for a few years.

A few years ago my mother was horrified to discover that her 2 oldest nephews did not know the words of the national anthem. She rang their head teacher in disgust and the HT said she felt it was for families to teach their kids if they felt it was important enough.

I meant grandsons not nephews! My nephews!!

I have no objection whatsoever to my son being taught the words of the national anthem and given the opportunity to analyse them. It is a very important part of British history and society. However I object to a child being made to sing a song that they do not fully understand. That will lead to adults like chipping who glibly sing the anthem without actually considering what it states.
Although I am religious I do not want my son singing hymns until he can make an informed decision about God. I only went to faith schools and my mum was actually a Sunday School teacher and I had this faith stuff indoctrinated into me from a very young age. It was only when I became older it was explained that faith was a belief set, not a set of 100% proven facts. However it was taught to me as fact and I object to this as I was too young at the time to know better.

"God save the queen" is a ridiculous song. I don't believe in God, I think the monarchy is an embarrassing and outdated institution, and I don't see why one should be called upon to save the other. I have no idea why on earth children are being made to sing this in schools. Seems utterly ludicrous to me.

I also think YANBU, and would dislike this intensely. Be privately proud of your country by all means (like most people I'm proud of some things and ashamed of others), but enforced patriotism is a cheap sentiment and one that's usually used by the unscrupulous to manipulate.

I object to any young child singing a song they cannot objectively analyse.
There was recently a thread on here about non-religious parents sending dcs to a faith school as many faith schools get better academic results. I hold the opposite view on this. I am a Churchgoer who would absolutely not want my son at a faith primary school as they teach Christian beliefs as fact. When ds is old enough I will explain what faith is and what science says and let him decide. I do not want him brainwashed. Equally with the monarchy I will carefully explain why I am republican and what royalists believe. I will objectively explain who the monarchy are and their history and then let him make an educated opinion. I will do my utmost not to push him one way or the other.

Raltheraff that is possibly the most pompous and ridiculous post I have read on MN.

I think most of N America sings their national anthems every morning. The older DC still remember most of the words to O Canada I think.

YANBU

Really surprised by the responses on this thread.
I don't remember singing the national anthem in school at all, let alone having to sing it every day

This idea is just totally alien to our culture isn't it. We are not drum beating flag waving nationalists, we just sort of quietly get on with it with a fair amount of feeling pleased about the good and feeling not pleased about the bad. We are not american, or north korean, or any of the other countries where this sort of thing goes on. It is not a cultural norm to behave this way.

If I found out DD's class were being told to sing the national anthem every day at school I would think it was incredibly weird and wonder wtaf was going on.

I just asked DH and he doesn't remember ever singing it either.

I am far from pompous. In fact when I went to Cambridge I was careful to choose Churchill College as it has the least pomp about it.
I want my son to think for himself rather than being a brainwashed moron. If you find that ridiculous you really need to ask yourself why and how that reflects on you.

Oh was going to say that our lack of obvious nationalistic fervour is intrinsically linked to our tolerance as a society and that is the main aspect of our society that I think we really should be proud of.

This activity is really counter-culture and I'm really shocked that so many people are yay about it. Especially given that it's a massive change to our school system if as people say it is coming in as compulsory in some areas. That will cause intolerance and the sort of divisiveness that causes so much trouble.

I worry about the direction our society is headed at the moment TBH.

There are some ludicrous comments on this thread. One advised the OP if she does not like GSTQ she should remove dc from school and home school them. I have also been encouraged to leave the country by one individual on this thread because I do not like the anthem.
Ironically this anthem that certain individuals hold in such high regard has a verse about how we are all brothers. So either they do not fully understand the anthem or glibly sing along to something that they in fact disagree with.

well said there mrsde

Well I wouldn't feel very happy about this either but I wouldn't make an issue of it.
Your child will learn most of his values at home.

To the poster talking about faith schools-many of us were taught a particular religion or even a denomination as fact. Most of us question this as adults whether we continue to follow that path or not.

"I object to any young child singing a song they cannot objectively analyse"

If this is literally the case, your child will be limited to enjoying the most banal and babyish of songs and deprived of the enjoyment of singing popular songs that his peers will also know.

This is not realistic and is all about you and an irrational fear that your child might be influenced by someone, somewhere. He will be influenced anyway because however hard you try to be neutral you are still his main influence. No one can grow up in a vacuum.

I object to any young child singing a song they cannot objectively analyse

I'd love someone to come along in a minute and analyse The Wheels On The Bus

Yanbu. It's fine to learn the national anthem, but singing it every day is weird.

And I find it very strange when people claim to be proud of the country in which they happened to be born. You might like it here, I certainly do, but if you want to feel pride, do something and be proud of that!

The tune is a bit dreary too isn't it.

Seven

I disagree it will cause intolerance. I feel the child will learn intolerance or not in the home as that is where the foundations are laid. I have every confidence my child could sing the national anthem at school without becoming intolerant.

I agree that it's a positive that nationalistic fervour is not part of our "being" as UK citizens. I sense that what is healthy (IMO) is more a quiet appreciation of our better exploits (music, the arts for instance) and some embarrassment about our past misdemeanours. Ie a more balanced approach.

I think learning about British artists/literature/film for instance would be a less polarising way for schools to "celebrate" Britishness. And that would include recognising contributions from British people from "minority" groups. For instance, we see a lot about black pop music - indeed it is mainstream. We receive little information about literature or art produced by black British writers. That's a shame because IMO it's that sort of thing which leads to cultural stereotyping.

but there was also a feeling that, because England doesn't have its own anthem, GTSQ feels like the English anthem, not a British one.

This^ All this Govian learning about being British in school isn't really about Britishness, its about some sort of idealised Englishness.

Yes debbie it is a dire song as well. On top of anything else.

If they're going to make them sing something every day they could have chosen something really uplifting and without involving any deities, etc etc.