To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

Also: I think among many people there is this kind of knee-jerk, visceral reaction to anything smacking of patriotism, because "Patriotism > Jingoism -> War." I think this attitude was originally borne out of the 20th century revulsion against jingoistic war as seen in the two World Wars.

But the reality is that war among developed countries has retreated massively in the last few decades, partly because of the spread of democracy and the fact that war between democracies is almost unthinkable. Instead, the nation state has increasingly become about providing services and redistributing wealth through taxes and spending, and while it may be an imperfect vehicle for doing so, it is probably better than any of the alternatives. I remember one writer who was talking about this, saying that one of the greatest achievements of the last 50 years has been the "feminization" of the nation state--it has become less about war-making, and more about protecting the vulnerable of society.

I think if we want to live in a society that is cohesive and has well-funded public services and so on, a reasonably strong sense of national identityincluding, yes, a certain amount of patriotismis absolutely essential. People are unlikely to want to pledge some of their wealth in the form of taxes to pay for good public services and nationalized healthcare etc. unless they feel a certain "tribal" sense of belonging to one nation and having special bonds with their fellow citizens. When I hear people bragging about how "oh, I don't have any sense of pride or emotional attachment to my nationality, it's just an accident of bureaucracy and borders" etc., all I can think of is how nihilistically individualistic and rootless that sounds.

I live in a house with someone not born in the UK. I feel I do have a common bond. He is very proud of being British. Interestingly more so than I am.

that rang a chord with me. My father came to the UK in 1942 during the war as a Polish soldier and stayed afterwards. He changed his nationality in the 1950s and was intensely proud to be British because he cherished the values he considered the UK stood for, especially having seen his birth country be taken over by Communism so that it was impossible to return.

I do think there's a novelty to this as even at my very traditional prep school in the 80s there wasn't daily singing of the national anthem.

I think Takver makes some good points about the particular historical and political associations with those songs. Like it or not the peak of British success, and hence the 'national pride' these songs tend to reference, was at the stage when we were subjugating a large chunk of the rest of the world by force. There are a lot of British citizens now whose grandparents and great grandparents were on the receiving end.

So if we want our kids to be truly proud of being British, by embracing the values expressed in our national anthem, then Id suggest we need a rethink of the national anthem.

If we are saying the words don't really matter and we want the kids to sing it as a badge of allegiance, then yes id have a problem. Genuine pride in what your country represents, fine, and there is plenty in the UK to be proud of. But that's founded on a critical appreciation of what said country is actually doing. I don't imagine unqualified German patriotism in 1939 got anyone very far, for eg.

My grandfather was very much against the monarchy and wouldn't stand up for the National Anthem in the days when absolutely everyone did- needless to say it produced children who thought the opposite- he was so dogmatic.

How about a bit of pride in your country and instilling it in your child? It's about the foundations of a good society, and pride in yourself and the country is just one small part.

I would hate it too. I don't support the monarchy so don't wouldn't want my child singing this. I would ask for them to be withdrawn.

Jerusalem is a bit different. Isn't it about building a socialist paradise I England's Green and pleasant land? I would support the singing of this but never of the bloody National Anthem

I wouldn't want my kids singing it everyday unless it was for a specified time to learn the so g for a reason. It's the same as praying in collective workshop daily I strongly object to this but it's in the curriculum so I just tell my kids to sit quietly whilst the others pray.

I've just looked up Jerusalem out of curiosity. Lyrics by Blake of course but the musical setting was by Hubert Parry in 1916 at the request of an organisation called Fight for Right, aims being:

... that the people of Great Britain, knowing that they are fighting for the best interests of humanity, may refuse any temptation, however insidious, to conclude a premature peace, and may accept with cheerfulness all the sacrifices necessary to bring the war to a satisfactory conclusion".)

But apparently it went on to be adopted by the suffragettes and the Atlee government of 1945 (so Jerusalem = welfare state?).

Verdict, chequered I think.

OP, I am wondering if the children may be learning these songs for a production? My DS primary school are putting on a production of Archie Dobsons war and they are learning many of these songs. Which is fine, but in any other circumstances I would have a massive problem with it too.

But Blake was a bit of a radical wasn't he? It's definitely a socialist anthem. Even Billy Bragg sang it. I would let my dd sing it every day

Actually, I am proud to be British. Living overseas for many years has enabled me to see Britain clearly for what it is, warts and all. There are lots of things I don't like about Britain, but there are lots of things that I value too.

One aspect of Britain that does make me proud is that we don't generally go in for mindless "patriotic" rituals and jingoistic claptrap. The "God bless America" type sentiments that we hear overseas would rightly be regarded with suspicion if they were to be uttered by one of our own politicians in relation to the UK, and they would be subject to a huge amount of ridicule.

Personally, I would be desperately sad if we ever lost this slightly sceptical aspect of our culture, and our ability not to take ourselves too seriously. I do not want my child being brainwashed with mindless nationalism, and I would be appalled to find this happening in our schools!

OP it would piss me off too YANBU

Yes he was, as far as I know. Chequered history suggests to me that Jerusalem is what you make of it! I think Id be okay with kids singing that too.

I quite like our Queen, but I don't think children should be singing a song to her everyday at school. I wouldn't like my dc doing this at all.

Yanbu op, it would give me the creeps seeing a,class if kids trotting out some awful anthem by rote like brainwashed little robots.

There might well be a sensible explanation - I offer two:

1. Sometimes initiatives and policy directions can be interpreted very literally. There is a current contextual one around "learning to be British". The daily singing of the National Anthem might well be an example of unimaginative interpretation.

1. In light of Ofsted's comments and the school's homogeneous white demographic, it could be that, as part of increasing learning about other cultures and countries, the children are doing so through singing National Anthems. It would be sensible to learn the 'home' country's anthem first and then next week/half-term start singing Venezuala's, for example.

Every day is a bit unusual but every country has a national anthem and every citizen of that country should know it. I find GSTQ a rather dreary tune but it's what we've got and our children should know it. Honestly I think the teacher is probably talking about the WW1 centenary and patriotism in context and using it as an opportunity for the dc to learn songs that are part of being British.
I doubt it will be every day forever. I always find it a bit disturbing to hear people denigrating 'Britishness' in this way. If you really hate it so much then leave. Lots of people in the world would love to take your place.

How about a bit of pride in your country and instilling it in your child? It's about the foundations of a good society, and pride in yourself and the country is just one small part.

Tell that to the North Koreans.

I'm in Scotland. I wouldn't want DS to be singing God Save the Queen every day. I wouldn't want him singing Flower of Scotland either. I wouldn't have a problem with him learning the words and becoming familiar with them as part of his education. But singing them every day or regularly? Absolutely no way.

"For me the Union Jack, God Save the Queen etc are quite tainted, they make me think of 70s race riots, skin heads, racism and street fights."

^^ this

I know people from other countries have said that their flag is a symbol that unifies the country: that just isn't so for the Union Jack or GSTQ. That doesn't mean that those of us who feel uncomfortable with them don't love our country, it is due to the historic associations of those symbols.

(I've also just re-read the words of Jerusalem, and I struggle to see anything that problematic within them, btw. Admittedly I may be swayed by a general love of Blake's poetry )

Your morals/beliefs are a matter for you. No right or wrong there. However, the issue is, because of your beliefs you disagree with your son participating.

I'm surprised no one has considered-what does your son think of singing it? He certainly won't understand the meaning of all the words - words which are offensive to you but not necessarily to him. He sounded like he was excited in your OP. I believe this is far more likely to be because of the joys of singing and of being part of a group than the actual meaning of the song.

With that in mind, I would contemplate the value of him participating in this activity with his school. Furthermore, at school and later in life, we will all have to do things which are at the least boring and sometimes at odds with what we believe for "the greater good". I think it's an important lesson to learn. In this case the greater good may be that he enjoys singing or taking part, for instance, even though you dislike what the song means. The "society versus the individual" struggle if you like.

It could be said, somewhat controversially, that, since you disapprove on his behalf, you are potentially as guilty of "brainwashing" him as the school are. Of course, we all impart our morals and beliefs to our children. And the apple rarely falls far from the tree so I think you can be assured that will not become a conformist nationist monarchist robot by singing this because you yourself are not of that ilk. You have nothing to fear apart from some potentially out of tune singing and an enthusiasm for the song which will quickly become old news.

It wouldn't bother me at all.

My DC were born in Wales. They learnt the National Anthem of Wales very quickly once they were at school, and it was sang quite frequently. That didn't bother me either.

So basically you're objecting to your children celebrating their nationality? Why? There's lots to be proud of, lots to be happy with and yes sometimes we all have a moan about how the country has gone to the dogs but personally id be more than happy for my two to have some sort of patriotic belief in the country than think they lived in a shit arse place with nothing to celebrate.