To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

I think if you choose to live in England then you should respect our culture- certainly not be anti our values and beliefs. I mean values such as tolerance, a broadly Christian society in our laws and ethics, kindness to people, justice.
Personally, I am an athiest but I respect that our society is broadly and historically based on Christian beliefs and those and pagan religious festivals pervade our culture. I don't have a huge problem with it. I am proud to be British and English. Not particularly a monarchist or anti. Wouldn't have a big problem with children learning patriotic songs. I do wonder about people living here and being anti- British values and customs. I wonder what they are doing living here if they don't like our society.
(Waits for flaming)

It is standard practice here in America to Pledge Allegiance to the flag every morning at school, as well as sing the national anthem before every sporting event.

Really it's just part of routine to show kids that the day is starting. By the time everyone gets to middle and high school everyone the majority of schools stop doing it. We do have our flags in every classroom (and on every house, car, and child's forehead).

We're not brain washed over here. We are just proud of our country. If you aren't proud of your country you're living in, why are you living there? There's plenty of other countries to choose from and you're close enough to them to have affordable options.

As an atheist anti-monarchist I would object to any of my children being expected to sing GSTQ regularly as part of the school day.

I would have no objection to them being taught the words and requested to sing it occasionally, purely for the purposes of broadening general knowledge.

I would expect the same for LOHAG although with some explanation of historical context and definitely not as a nice little song to belt out during assembly.

My school (secondary) sang LOHAG as the close to what was otherwise a thoughtful and rather moving Rememberance assembly last week. I did wonder how many pupils (and staff) got the irony.

But why be proud of the country you happen to be living in or were born in?

What does it have that other countries don't have?

i don't think land of hope and glory fits in with any of those values lulu tbh which is why it's a little bit problematic for small children to be singing it every DAY!

Let's hope they mix it up with other things soon

But why be proud of the country you happen to be living in or were born in?

On that note, why live in a country you aren't proud to be a part of?

'If you aren't proud of your country you're living in, why are you living there?' Excuse me? Because it's my home and I like it here. That's different from being proud of it, per se. I hope that I can contribute to it in a positive way and that the contributions of everyone who lives here will ultimately make it a positive society, but I don't kid myself that I contribute so much that I can be proud of it, as opposed to admiring things that other people do here.

Minty, i don't see it as being proud in a superior one-upmanship way but in way that recognises one's own individual roots in a country and sharing that with fellow countrymen/women. That's all.

Being proud is not something I experience very often except in relation to my two fantastic dc.

Maybe it's the schools token attempt at "collective worship of broadly christian ethos" as required by law.

I'd opt for the National Anthem daily over the lords prayer any day.

We sang national anthem daily when I was at school in Africa.

And not that its relevant but I know 4 national anthems (including the welsh)

I hope that I can contribute to it in a positive way and that the contributions of everyone who lives here will ultimately make it a positive society, but I don't kid myself that I contribute so much that I can be proud of it

But you're looking at it from an individualistic view. Your country =/= you.

It just means you hold the country as a whole in high esteem because of what it stands for, what it's accomplished, and how it impacts the world, and that you are happy to be a part of all that.

I live in London and which, I think I'm right in saying, is the UK city with the highest proportion of residents who were not born in the UK. And it is a very high proportion. So I don't feel I have that common bond with the people I am surrounded by, and therefore I don't have anything to be proud of.

I live in a house with someone not born in the UK. I feel I do have a common bond. He is very proud of being British. Interestingly more so than I am.

The point is being missed by a lot of people. My question would be... in addition to the food police, exercise police, General health and well being police, are teachers now the nationalism police? If YOU as a parent want your children to have this knowledge...FANTASTIC..fill yer boots, but you do it in your own time because IMO the first priority should be to equipchildren with with the skill needed to compete in the job world.

all t hat is really happening is half baked sound bite ideas w hi children sound Great in the daily mail. Since when are teachers more important than parents?

In comparisions to many countries across the world we have many things to be proud of:

democracy (however flawed)
equality legislation - it is one of the best countries in the world to be a woman, disabled or gay
a social security safety net (however flawed)
Free healthcare at the point of need (however flawed)
Freedom of speech (however flawed)

It doesn't bother me particularly if you aren't proud of those things and don't fight to maintain them to the best of our individual and collective ability. But it is a little surprising that you dont see that they could be something to be proud of. They can be equally fought for and protected by people who are British by choice rather than birth.

I have lived in a country with none of those things and I would have been scraping around to find something to write in a similar fashion

Atheist and republican. I too would be objecting.

But England/Britain doesn't have a completely proud history. There are some excellent things in our past and some things I feel somewhat ashamed by. Patriotism to me is far too close to Nationalism and Nationalism is very very destructive. For me the Union Jack, God Save the Queen etc are quite tainted, they make me think of 70s race riots, skin heads, racism and street fights.

When my children were at school in the US I was very glad that they were not required to say the Pledge of Allegiance I don't like American patriotism very much, it's very insular and thinking that your own country is the best brings all sorts of problems.

I'd less of a problem with them singing Oh Canada, although it's a bit overtly religious because at least it is about the country. Lots of National Anthems are really quite odd IMO.

I think that children should be taught the National Anthem, and encouraged to sing it on special occasions. To me that's completely different to compulsory daily singing sessions at school.

Oh and a song about those things Kew would be a bit different, I'd be happy to sing about the value of freedom and a social compact that focuses on treating people well.

Custardo 'are teachers now the nationalism police?' - gosh, NO. I would seriously doubt that this is possibly becoming a thing because of teachers thinking it's a great idea!

The suggestion from Lulujakey that 'I do wonder about people living here and being anti- British values and customs. I wonder what they are doing living here if they don't like our society.' rather sums up why I have massive reservations about this.

I'm sure the poster doesn't mean to suggest that I shouldn't be 'here' if I don't agree with the sentiments expressed in one contentious song.

But we have here a conflation of 'anti-British values & customs'. 'Values' & 'customs' are not the same thing, for a start.

& I'd argue that a fairly fundamental 'British value' is that we can debate what it means to be a member of 'our society', & that I can contend that it doesn't = people willing to sing the National Anthem.

No flaming from me, Lulujakey - that's kind of my point. I think acceptance of differing opinion is absolutely a core British value.

When I was at school I learnt the National Anthem (useful in the old days at the end of theatre and cinema performances). And Land of Hope and Glory (wonderful tune). Also Jerusalem (very handy now I'm in the WI). I wish we'd sung I Vow to Thee my Country, because it's beautiful, but I learned it later.
Out of interest when doing French I also learned La Marseillaise. I'm sure it'll come in handy sometime.

Learning those songs/hymns won't turn your DC into a raging BNP fanatic. Just treat them as part of our history and heritage.

YABTU "T" = totally.

Raven i didn't explain clearly enough because I was engulfed n my own faceatiousness. It boils down to teachers being told by the govt to do things like this which is clearly. Parents job along with health and wellbeing and sex education and religion ans on and on. Kids are leaving school not able to read. But by jimminy we will install. Sense of patriotism.... what the actual fuck.

This is an interesting threas to read, as a Canadian.

O Canada is played in school everyday. Children are taught the words in English and French, but very rarely was it compulsory to sing along.

Often, the class was very ethnically diverse, and many were not born in Canada, nor had they lived here long. But everyone was required to stand and listen quietly to the anthem. Though it's a heavily Christian sentiment in the anthem, most understand it to be based on the tradition of our founders and nothing more. Rather, the anthem is appreciated for the country itself-many have left their countries for a better life here, and are proud to be here.

In this case, in the UK, a much older country with deep history, undeniably overcoming some dark times-can't you be proud of that? That your country has evolved so much over time that you've re-evaluated your values while still maintaining your land and customs?

I think children in American schools still say the Pledge of Allegiance every day, do you object to that on principle too?
As previously mentioned in the thread the right to not say the Pledge of Allegiance has been legally upheld several times, all the way to the Supreme Court.
I have no idea what age my daughter was when she stopped saying it, but by the time she was in high school she wasn't even standing for it. Entirely her choice. And even though her teacher didn't like it he couldn't compel her, or even tell her that she 'should' do it.

What I object to, strongly, is the fact that they teach the children to parrot the words without ever telling them what it means. Not a 'deeper meaning' philosophical kind of a way, although I suspect that's slightly relevant, but the literal meaning of potentially difficult-to-a-five-year-old words like 'allegiance' or 'indivisible'. Never mind Liberty and Justice.

Parents should teach national pride if that's what they believe. Teachers should do things like teach