To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

Yes, apologies, it IS a lazy argument, just read the thread at wring time.

Personal,y speaking though I couldn't get in a stew about this. They may be doing the singing for any number of reasons, it doesn't sound a usual activity.

fair play - the CIN stories are enough to make everything seem trivial x

As I asked this morning, please could a patriot come and explain to me what it means?

GratefulHead,

You cannot invalidate the OPs argument by comparing her issue to some child dying of starvation in the third world.

Also sarcasm is the lowest form of wit (Wilde)

This is not Twitter so there is no point whatsoever in your #, you will not get it trending on here, because that is not how MN works.

GratefulHead, perhaps you should be thankful that you are not one of the millions of people worldwide, including people just across the water from you in Ireland, for whom the notion of an artificially-created nation state and being exhorted to feel pride in that, is not a problem. Because the very real repercussions arising from the concept of the nation state (which is only a few hundred years old) affect many many people, in ways such as racial/social/religious persecution, state-sanctioned violence and intimidation, lack of freedom to pursue cultural and other activities and, ultimately, homelessness, statelessness and indeed death. This is what happens when you carve the world up the way that our political leaders have done - national pride is therefore not a neutral concept, or a harmless one.

Sorry ... that should say is a problem.

I would want my children to know the National Anthem. But there is no placed for the daily singing of it in schools. Any more than in workplaces.

Fair enough and I did apologise....in case anyone missed it!

I still say though that this is a non problem.

Who cares? I get that forced prayers everyday would raise issues but I really don't see the problem with this. I'd probably want to know why the school were doing it but given that topics change rapidly in Primary schools I doubt this is an ongoing thing.

I still say though that this is a non problem.

Tell that to an NI Catholic. Go on, I dare you.

It's only a non problem for people who think it's a non problem.

I was thrilled to discover last year that DS (then 9) and DD1 (then 6) knew the words to Jerusalem. I found this out in church at my parents blessing service for their 50th wedding anniversary. For a dancing show all 3 of my children are singing (amongst other things) Land of Hope and Glory

Seven and others who have mentioned living in London-as an ex-Londoner I think this would have a significant influence on your experience. London is so multi-cultural in an obvious way...

However the % of foreign born residents in the UK is 12%. The % of asylum seekers is just 0.23%. (So God knows why the far right gets so upset about them).

Most non British persons therefore chose to come to Britain and make it their home so British things cannot be that repellant.

(An asylum seeker would likely have bigger fish to fry than worry about the national anthem anyway.)

Three of the top five countries of origin for non UK born residents: ROI, Poland and Germany (surprising). The first two are majority Catholic countries and the latter majority Christian.

So those who assume foreign born persons are offended by the Christian element may not be accurate.

Christian or not they may or may not wish to participate because they are individuals. Well-intentioned fears of offending theoretical people=patronising.

An asylum seeker could be Christian as Christians are oppressed in some countries. An immigrant could be a Royalist. Why not? I know a very formidable Indian lady who is more of a Royalist than anyone else I know. She wouldn't need some well meaning Guardian Reader taking offence on her behalf.

You don't have to approve but don't assume that a "poor little immigrant" needs the kindly Westerner to reject this "ritual" on his behalf.

Immigrants to the UK can decide for themselves if they want to participate in this singing just as can the OP. Unless you think they are stupid?

Well, I hope that part of their project on India involves learning about how 'Great Britain' marched on in and took what they wanted in the name of 'our gracious king/queen.'

And there's that dropped verse about crushing 'rebellious Scots.' I wouldn't want a child of mine being made to sing that song.

all sounds very hitler youth

I'm not assuming anything

I simply pointed out that many non British people as well as many non British people might well have strong objections to their children being told to sing the british national anthem in school every day.

You reject all of those reasons and like I say that is your perogative.

Still you should be aware that it is a fact that many people would have a big problem with this change in school policy, as demonstrated by the OP and all the people who agree with her.

Why on earth would people want something introduced into schools of all places which they know will cause upset and division. It's a strange thing to want.

Many non British as well as many British people obviously.

But then chickens you said that asylum seekers who would be uncomfortable with their children singing the national anthem every day in school can always go to a different country, I assume this extends to others as well, it would seem odd to restrict the sentiment to a single group.

Strange that a single example of where this activity might be problematic has been jumped on but there you go.

Upthread the following questions were asked "Why am I making too much of it? Schools are officially supposed to be inclusive now and should be encouraging children to be critical listeners, readers and thinkers. How does that fit with being told what you should and shouldn't love, and being taught this country is better than others?"

I have some questions of my own

How does singing the National Anthem prevent people being critical listeners or tells people what they should or should not love? Even if children are led to believe that this country is better than many others is such a belief actually wrong when you look objectively at the standard of life vent he poor here have to say nothing of the tradition of freedom and the rule of law we enjoy? How many of those who knock Britain and shout about how wonderful other cultures are have seen anything of how they work - genocide, starvation and misery in so many places, suttee coming back in India, children (girls, of course) shot because they are being educated? Why should we not rejoice in our own liberties and luck in having been born here whilst still being prepared to pray and work for those less fortunate?

I an sure that many of those who have posted on this thread know little of how other societies actually work - if they had known more they would have been prepared to count their blessings and sing with me:

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen! .

Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

Right so you introduce the national anthem daily in every school in the UK.

This will anger and upset an awful lot of people.

Why would you want to do that? What is the purpose?

I think people are fixating on the asylum seekers issue because they don't want to address the huge connotations of forcing children to sing God save the queen in school every day in communities affected by sectarianism (which are not confined to Northern ireland). Why should children be forced to sing a song that's been used as a tool of oppression and violence against their own community?

It's much better to sit there pretending that it's all just a nice bit of national anthem singing that no one could possibly be offended by. People are all being 'silly' if they object to flag-waving nationalism.

And then there's the fact that there is no situation that anyone will ever find themselves in where not knowing the words to God save the queen would ever be a problem. It's just not something that anyone actually needs to know.

"Even if children are led to believe that this country is better than many others is such a belief actually wrong when you look objectively at the standard of life vent he poor here have to say nothing of the tradition of freedom and the rule of law we enjoy?"

Should read:
Even if children are led to believe that this country is better than many others is such a belief actually wrong when you look objectively at the standard of life even the poor here have - to say nothing of the tradition of freedom and the rule of law we enjoy?

Someone upthread said their LEA (or whatever they're called now) was introducing daily national anthem singing as a "thing".

Can;t be bothered to trawl through for the post at the mo.

I don't see Remembrance Sunday as 'an incredibly patriotic time'. In fact, I'd go as far to say that viewing it as patriotic is to completely miss the point.

Lots of people would strenously object to national anthem singing in school and, crucially, they have good reason to. You might think it's all, jam and bloody tea parties, but GSTQ is a long, long way from that in many people's experience.