To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

The moral of the story is if you are a child don't tell your mother what you are singing-saves a lot of aggro.

Again expressing my surprised.

It is not a current norm, nor a cultural norm, nor a custom, for children in UK schools to sing the national anthem every day.

This appears to be changing, in OPs school and other posters have mentioned that in their LEAs (or whatever they're called now) it's being brought in.

This is a new and large change to the landscape of our schools, which apparently people are all for.

I am really, genuinely surprised by this thread. If it represents general opinion then I am quite shocked. I live in London - maybe that could account for the difference (clutching at straws).

I really sincerely hope it doesn't become the rule in our Borough as well.

How sad that you think there is something wrong with being patriotic, you should write to the guardian and complain OP.

I know my son's prep school was of the view no boy should leave the school without knowing the national anthem (and a lot of other things too) and no boy should leave without watching Schindler's List and a load of other very sensible ideas. Singing it every day would be very unusual but better than the musical rubbish most primary schools have children sing.

Far, the problem is precisely that you were generalising about an entire nation ("most US citizens" were your words) in rather offensive terms. I don't know what you mean by "Do we have to pretend that US citizens are, in general, knowledgeable about, interested in and tolerant of the citizens of other countries?" I wouldn't say pretense is involved at all. You will certainly encounter many people in the US who are knowledgeable about, interested in, and tolerant of people from other countries. You will encounter others who are not. It's quite similar to the UK, in fact.

When we were in London a couple of years ago, some people made some very pointed anti-Polish remarks, clearly in reference to my husband (who is actually Russian, not Polish). Of course, that was one group. But the sentiments are shared by many in the UK, just as intolerant views exist in the US. Again, the two countries are quite similar in this way, for better or for worse. I will say that my husband has never encountered anything like those nasty people in all his years in the US.

Seven: "I am really surprised at this thread. It's one of those ones on MN where you realise that your ideas of what is "mainstream" are actually way off the mark and you wonder how you've missed it."

Me too. Then again, you can't necessarily conclude that what people say on MN is representative of the general population.

OP, did your DS mention if the children all stand up?

(Sorry if I missed that bit - I've tried not to skim)

My father, who immigrated to this country always stood up for the national anthem, from before he had British nationality, to the day he could no longer physically do so.

And here's an interesting map of the world's most and least tolerant countries.

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

As I suspected, the US and the UK are similar in being among the most tolerant.

To correct a few misconceptions, it is also not necessarily the norm for children in the US to sing the national anthem every day or even to recite the Pledge of Allegiance on a daily basis. It varies greatly from school district to school district. When my children were at school, it was done only in assembly once a month. I always told them they did not have to join in if they chose not to, as they are guaranteed this right under the First Amendment.

For another thing the US national anthem is hard to sing. In the schools I am familiar with, America the Beautiful is actually the song most often substituted when the time comes for a patriotic song.

I would prefer that my children not have to participate in a patriotic exercise every day. I would definitely not want any kind of religious doctrination, no matter how minor, at school, and for this reason I object to the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. But that's about as far as it can go in state schools because we have separation of church and state in the US.

On the pride thing, I am not proud to be an American in the sense that I understand that it is an accident of birth, not an accomplishment on my part. But the pride thing has to be understood in the context of history. The establishment of the US was highly intentional; our nation was born in revolution, political and idealogical. The founders set about designing a government in which individual liberty was to be balanced with the collective good. It was deeply flawed (slavery was enshrined in the Constitution); but this notion of a thing mindfully createdwhich must constantly be protected and made betteris a deep part of the shared American political landscape.

morningtoncrescent62 Bingo. Or jingo

That is it, except ours were on a thick, black leather band

Well quite scone. The US and the UK are entirely different cultures - our landscape is much more in common with our neighbours than with the US, I think that people draw comparisons though because of shared language and so on. But really we are fundamentally different in some really major ways.

So I think "well they do it in the USA so why not here" is a slightly random point as it's an entirely different culture, different history, different approach and sense of what a nation is about.

I had a colleague over from the US recently - a youngish one - and we had a lot of really interesting conversations about cultural norms and differences - she was from an area where they flew the flag outside houses and religion was a big deal - and the caveat of course was that it's a huge place and so massive differences in what is the norm where, while I was answering her questions about the UK with the similar caveat that while the UK is tiny in comparison still there will be differences between cities (we were in London) and other places not just in terms of attitudes but demographics and so on.

I find the idea that what happens in the US must easily and appropriately translate to the UK more than a little odd TBH.

she was from an area where they flew the flag outside houses and religion was a big deal

So am I. I live in the Deep South. Lots of misconceptions about us Southerners as well.

But I take your points, Seven, and I essentially agree.

I agree, MrsDeVere. The co-opting of symbols to express a kind of ostentatious patriotism makes me very uneasy, e.g. when the poppy is all about showing how much more patriotic you are than anyone else or when racist thugs appropriate the Union Jack. Something similar has happened recently in Russia with the ribbon of St. George, which now is used as a symbol of nationalism.

It's an ironic shame that this sort of faux patriotism is often the most visible. And of course it has nothing in common with genuine patriotism which certainly includes the awareness of the negative aspect of one's country/culture/history and the desire to effect change for the better.

When we were in London a couple of years ago, some people made some very pointed anti-Polish remarks, clearly in reference to my husband (who is actually Russian, not Polish)

I don't doubt it elktheory except I'm confused as to why they pinpointed your husband.

These days many people in Britain are very upset about Central and Eastern immigration which they generally boil down to 'Poles' taking our jobs and abusing our welfare system.

I am sometimes tolerant of this view that I think is borne more of frustration than hatred.

But, I'm not sure why they would direct those comments at a US citizen of Russian descent. Presumably your DH has an American accent. If he doesn't, what prompted it? I know many people with non-British accents and they don't get abuse.

When I was devouring American cinema, TV and fiction in the '70s, a common theme was ridicule of 'Polacks'. Much like the ridicule of 'Micks' that my father endured.

Hostility to minority groups is surely not alien to the US, is it?

My husband is not just of Russian descent. He is Russian. Born and raised in Russia, emigrated as an adult, now a dual citizen (Russia/US). He has a Russian accent when speaking English. He was targeted (or I suppose both of us were targeted, though in my case they were even further off the mark) by these unpleasant people in London because he and I were speaking Russian together, as we usually do.

I agree with you OP, I wouldn't like it either. There is a difference between learning a song and being made to sing it every day, especially if you aren't going to do so while encouraging critical thinking and discussing the context and values in the lyrics.

Not really sure what you can do about it - going in all guns blazing might create more problems than it would solve. In your shoes, I would try and talk to my children about the songs, how they could be interpreted, and about the value of patriotism. I would also encourage them to politely abstain from singing if they didn't want to join in.

I'm sorry about your experience ElkTheory.

I live in London and am baffled by your experience, although I don't doubt it.

It wouldn't happen near me, but London is a big place, as I am sure you would say of many other cities, including those in the US and Russia.

Those countries are much bigger places than the UK and also have their problems with xenophobia and racism, do they not?

Yes, indeed. As I have stated several times on this thread, intolerance exists everywhere. The US and the UK are quite comparable, Russia is becoming increasingly xenophobic and racist.

I still wish I'd had the presence of mind to say something to the anti-Polish bigots but I'm afraid I was struck dumb.

And I've been on the receiving end of anti-American sentiments many times over the years, beginning as a 5-year-old child in my first primary school in London. I soon learned to modify my speech and developed a school accent and a home accent.

Having lived in the UK as a child, an adolescent, and an adult, I do think that anti-American sentiments have increased in recent years though.

I think you're younger than me elk. When I was growing up we were obsessed with Happy Days and there was nothing cooler than being American.

Even though Happy Days was set in Wisconsin, which is possibly the least cool state of America.

Sorry for residents of Wisconsin. I'm sure it's really nice.

I think the OP has what is known as a #firstworldproblem.

Then again am a bit meh as I have just seen parents on a Children In Need programme who have REAL difficulties. Am sure they would love YOUR dilemma OP.

Of course they should learn the national anthem, you'd want them to sing it whatever nation they were surely.
if they aren't British then teach them the equivalent NA.

OP, in your shoes I would be most concerned too and wonder what the thinking behind all this is. If it's just one rogue teacher then I would hope that the school would address your concerns.

Also quite shocked at some of the unquestioning attitudes on here. Patriotism and national pride are actually relatively new concepts, in human terms. We have always been tribal, but nations are artificially created, and no nation is without its problem areas because of that - there are always minorities, and people who have been conquered etc. So I don't see what there is to be proud of in that. Even in a relatively small country such as the UK you can see this, and it's the same everywhere. Political and royal leaders try to paper over the cracks with this concept of national pride, but I say bollocks to it. I'm not going to be proud because I live within an artificially-delineated patch of land that was carved up according to the whims of war and other aspects of power. And I certainly don't want my children to be taught that they should be proud of something so arbitrary and politically loaded either.

Grateful the same could be said of most threads - they could all be dismissed with a sweep of the 'there are people dying/starving/suffering' now can't they - rather lazy argument