To not want ds singing the bloody national anthem every day at school?

[lecce]

I am reeling about this and would love some opinions.

Last night the dc and I were taking it turns to play songs on Youtube, when ds1 (7, Yr 3) announced he wanted 'Land of Hope and Glory' for his next choice . I was stunned - I didn't even know he'd heard of it. In the interrogation that followed, it transpired that his class has been singing 'God Save the Queen' every day before home time. It has no relation to their current topic, which is India, of all things... Mention has been made of 'loving our country' and that, as 'we are English' we should know these lyrics.

On Friday, those who had completed their art work early were given the lyrics of 'Land of...' (not ds - never have I been so happy about his lack of artistic talent) but, apparently, they will all be 'doing' it soon.

I absolutely do not want my children singing these nationalistic, jingoistic lyrics every day. I don't want the school promoting this kind of cheap patriotism to them, either. This is not what education is about.

Is this Gove's fault? I am a teacher (sec) and have heard nothing about this particular type of brainwashing. AIBU to kick up a stink about this?

Aw, thank you, limited.

Amazed by the jingoism on this thread! Totally agree with OP - it's barking to make children sing the National Anthem every day. Yes, they do that kind of thing in the US (also have the US flag flying all over the place) - and what knowledgeable and tolerant members of the world community most US citizens are! If we are proud of being British, we should be proud for a reason. This kind of thing is brainwashing children - national pride on command, regardless of what a mess the country is in.

quiet possibly Mornington we sang one about the Titanic that included lines like 'husbands and wives little children lost their lives' and 'little children wept and cried as the waves swept 'o the side' ...cheerful stuff!

It was Liverpool so there was a fair smattering of Beatles numbers as well!

Just popping back to say how much I agree with everything that has been said in support of my view, and to mention that raltheraffe's post was one of the least pompous or ridiculous things I have ever read, anywhere.

I love how the extent of the opposing argument appears to be limited to 'what's wrong with being patriotic?', despite the fact that this has already been explained several times, and 'Go somewhere else if you don't like it.' .

Will definitely be finding out exactly why this is happening and voicing my concerns if I'm not happy with the response.

ghostyslovesheep Maybe you can help me. What was the instrument that was like a leather knuckleduster with five or six round silver-coloured bells on it? You wore it on one hand and shook it.

It was called something like the Austrian bells or Swiss bells.

Anyway, I longed to be given that but rarely was

I object to any young child singing a song they cannot objectively analyse.

Meant to say, although I wouldn't have put it quite like this, I agree in principle. I hate children mindlessly parroting lyrics with no idea what they mean. While I think 'objectively analyse' might be going a bit far (young children aren't famed for their objective analysis) I'm not happy with children singing any lyrics whose meaning is far beyond them. Schools are a place where children should be taught to question and understand the world around them, not mindlessly repeat what they're told. It doesn't matter whether the mindless repeating is spoken, chanted or sung, they shouldn't be doing it in a school. Song lyrics can be great ways to teach children about the world, or they can be the vehicle for quite a dangerous lesson in getting caught up in manufactured crowd emotion without knowing what it's about. I know which way I'd want my children taught.

It was sad, it was sad,
It was sad when that gre-eat ship went down...

Yep, we sang that one. I recognise that instrument, limited. We called them the jingly bells, and I think they're probably similar to what morris dancers wear.

Ooh we sang the Titanic song too! It was very bizarre...

At the age of about eight I objected to singing Amazing Grace because I wasn't a wretch. That sounded horrible.

I didn't tell anyone of my objections and just mimed through it at school performances which I now realise were conducted by our ex-missionary zealot head mistress.

Yes, they do that kind of thing in the US (also have the US flag flying all over the place) - and what knowledgeable and tolerant members of the world community most US citizens are!

That is a really offensive thing to say, not to mention an utterly sweeping and unsupportable generalisation.

Honestly, this sort of statement is exactly why I would be concerned about the thoughtless, repetitive singing of the national anthem in any school. It can lead to unthinking xenophobia.

OP, I hope you have a chance to talk to the teacher and/or HT. In your place, I would really want an explanation and an agreement for your child (and any other child) to opt out of singing God Save the Queen.

I don't think the national anthem should be avoided because asylum seekers might feel excluded by it. That would stray into the realms of taking offence on behalf of others who may or may not be offended. There are people who have fled war etc and settled here. Some people may wish to assimilate and participate in customs.

Personally I would think that someone who has fled their country in that situation had bigger fish to fry than be worried about some kids singing the national anthem.

It would also be fair to say that no asylum seeker is forced to seek asylum in the UK in particular(although they may feel compelled to seek asylum in the first place).

Our country is not that repellant and offensive to deter persons from seeking refuge here because historically people always have.

*ElkTheory" - being naïve about other countries doesn't impress. How about this, for starters, from an academic study:

Citizens' Knowledge of Foreign Affairs

Stephen Earl Bennett

Richard S. Flickinger

John R. Baker

Staci L. Rhine

Linda L. M. Bennett

Abstract

Although scholars have long known that most Americans are woefully ignorant of foreign affairs (Almond 1960; Kriesberg 1949), they are uncertain about how the U.S. public's knowledge of international politics compares to that of people in other countries. We address this uncertainty with a study of citizens' knowledge of foreign affairs in five western democracies: Britain, Canada, France, Germany, and the United States. The focus is on the roles each country's mass media play in the process by which citizens learn about international politics.

The study found that Germans are the most knowledgeable about international politics, citizens in Britain, Canada, and France displayed moderate knowledge, and Americans had the least knowledge.

Limited we just called them Jingly Bells as well - sorry

a quick google seems to indicate they are sleigh bells but I have no idea if that's the correct name

Singing God Save the Queen every day in our state schools is not a UK "custom" by any stretch of the imagination.

There are loads of perfectly reasonable objections to this activity, many of which have been spelt out on this thread, and include - yes include - how appropriate it may be in areas which are very diverse.

I am really surprised at this thread. It's one of those ones on MN where you realise that your ideas of what is "mainstream" are actually way off the mark and you wonder how you've missed it.

I would have to read the full study to be able to comment. I don't know who the researchers are, how they define their terms, how they determine who possesses knowledge, who is included in the pool of research subjects, etc. Without knowing any of that, I couldn't possibly comment. Would it be acceptable to you if someone in Germany stated that most British citizens are completely ignorant (and intolerant to boot), using this study as support?

I absolutely object to the vastly sweeping statement that "most US citizens" are intolerant and ignorant. It's the sort of nonsense that MN is known for, alas.

OP, sorry for the sidetrack.

Oh I missed this bit:

"It would also be fair to say that no asylum seeker is forced to seek asylum in the UK in particular(although they may feel compelled to seek asylum in the first place). "

So if people don't want their kids to sing that Britain is their native land, and call to a God that may not be their religion, they can piss off and seek asylum somewhere else.

TOLERANCE is the greatest trait of the UK, it is the thing we can really take pride in compared to many other places. Like others have pointed out, the INTOLERANCE shown by those who claim to feel proud of Britain is quite extreme.

The words of the National Anthem are as follows:

God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen.

The full version is posted upthread as well Lynette.

Limited is this what you had in mind? I don't remember them being blue and plastic, I think ours were more black and strappy, but it's definitely the same idea. Hey, you could always get some of your own and jingle away to the song about the Titanic or Let It Be or even God Save the Queen if the mood takes you.

I agree with PPs about the irony present on this thread.

OP, sorry for the sidetrack

I don't think it's a sidetrack. As soon as I saw the thread title, I knew that taking digs at Americans would be a strain in the discussion. The reference to North Korea was especially insulting.

Ah,so it is Seven and I agree with what was said by that poster.

All join in....

Elk - unlike you, I've at least scanned a study published in an academic journal. Do we have to pretend that US citizens are, in general, knowledgeable about, interested in and tolerant of the citizens of other countries? I get it that making assumptions leads to racism, but we can't be expected to ignore everything we've learned in our lives, when commenting on other countries. I've never been to Afghanistan, but from everything I've heard and read on the topic, I believe that it's not a fun place for girls to grow up in. Would prefer my daughter to grow up in Denmark. So shoot me.

Thanks, Scone. I usually avoid any thread on MN that has anything to do with the US, because of the typical (and offensive) anti-American sentiments. I should have known this one would go in that direction too!

So how do you feel about Land of My Fathers?

I get that you don't like anthems. Which must make sporting events particularly irritating. And if they are talking about English, rather than British people then that's especially irritating. And yes, it's a fairly rubbish anthem, both tune and lyrics.

But honesty, going after it because it's not inclusive? It's the national anthem of this country (and I say this as a filthy immigrant). Yep, it mentions God, but then this country has an established church (and I say that as a godless heathen).

It's not a million miles from saying that the teaching isn't inclusive because it's all in English.