To think that the new SNP leader just pledged to ignore the will of the majority of Scottish people?

[RudeBarbandCustard]

Forgive me if I'm being naive - I may well be.

But Nicola Sturgeon pledging to continue to fight for Scottish independence is essentially a pledge to fight against the majority of the Scottish people's democratically expressed wishes?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423

I mean, it couldn't be clearer. The majority of Scottish people voted No. So she's essentially saying "Hey, majority of Scotland - I'm going to ignore what you voted for in a democratic process, and fight for the opposite!".

It smacks of arrogance, and a complete disregard for what people voted for!

I may be missing something though, but it's intriguing and bugging me so I'd be interested to hear what others think.

The possibility of having to leave the EU was something a huge amount of people were really unhappy about during the referendum...why would those people then vote for UKIP?

'If you think that there is the same appetite for a referendum on leaving the EU as there is elsewhere in the UK then you are sadly mistaken.'

I realise that and I realise that UKIP only got about 10% in the EU elections in Scotland and only have 1 out of the 6 Scottish MEPs. But over time that will change. It won't happen overnight. The Tories are finished and soon Labour will be finished. Then it will be the SNP vs UKIP.

But we can be hauled out even if every voter in Scotland votes to stay. That's a huge issue and I think Nicola is right to raise it.

Then it will be the SNP vs UKIP.

Sort of. Itll be the SNP in Scotland and UKIP in rUK. Labour and the ConDems are pretty screwed though...

SNP take up a group of voters who might go UKIP in England imo. SNP traditionalists are conservative in nature where I live. The newer SNP is left leaning as NS indicated in her recent comments on coalition possibilities. But so long as it's the SNationalP it satisfies the traditional conservative types well enough. I don't think there is sufficient space for UKIP. The dislike of London far outweighs concerns over EU.

'why would those people then vote for UKIP?'

Because the argument against has not been made yet. All of the Establishment, all of Westminster and Alex Salmond and the Scottish Establishment all want to stay in the EU. That is why the alternative case has not yet been made. The UKIP earthquake will force the issue to be discussed. The BBC and the Establishment won't be able to monopolise the debate.

And there are many people in Scotland who still want to be in the Union and they will give up on the Labour "love bombers" and the fast-talking Margaret Currans because they will realise that Labour don't stand a chance and will be wiped out by the SNP. Those people will look for someone to defend their interests and views against the SNP and that will be politically incorrect UKIP who will put up a real challenge to the SNP.

Claig you do realise that UKIP have a negligible presence in Scotland?

Santana - that quote from Bella Caledonia "We shouldn’t want to reconcile with them-their expulsion from our public and political life should be as thorough and declarative as every Yes vote struck in September."

So in other words, you won't get a job with the Cooncil or the State in an independent Scotland unless you voted Yes, or kept your No opinions very much to yourself. People are watching You. Does anyone else think that already goes on, to some extent? That people don't get jobs or don't get promoted because sometimes in some places an pro-Independence supporter is in charge and quietly shuffles them to the bottom of the pile? I also think there are a lot of pro-independence people working in the education sector, who think they can influence the younger generations by influencing the content to have a pro-Scots bias.

Sturgeon veto on leaving the EU? Interesting question but I don't think its supportable in law. It would be helpful if she gave a legal basis for making these type of pronouncements. A State is either a member of the EU or is not, and the relevant Treaty articles refer to only accession or succession and not part thereof. Nor do they allow for making up laws to suit yourself - the rule of law is enshrined in the EU Treaties.

I think the Government is only posturing on leaving the EU to get a budget reduction and to pander to Euro-sceptics, but you can't be sure - the UK economy is doing reasonably well in comparitive European terms, mainly due to the finance sector so much derided by the SNP, so theres probably an element of trusting their own judgment over what Europe tells them to do.

Electing a UKIP mep wasn't our brightest moment. It would be silly to deny their presence in Scotland on the back of that although people vote very differently in euro elections.

"But we can be hauled out even if every voter in Scotland votes to stay. That's a huge issue and I think Nicola is right to raise it."

She is right to raise it. It is about democracy etc. But she cannot demand it because Scotland as it stands is still part of the UK.

Nearly every voter in Essex, where I am from, can't stand Labour but we had to put up with them for 13 years. That is what being in a democracy is all about.

They told us on the news the other day that more people live in Essex than voted yes in the Scottish referendum. How can we be disenfranchised by vetos?

By all means have another independence referendum, but next time the SNP will come up against UKIP, not the politically correct "love bombers" that they come up against now.

So next tactic in the Wings/Bella Caledonia argument: drumroll.... UKIP taking over - better vote SNP...

I can't work out if its because Wings etc really are stupid or they really do believe the population of Scotland are all stupid, or whether its a mixture of the two. Probably the latter.

'The dislike of London far outweighs concerns over EU.'

Yiou are right. I live just 30 miles from London and we can't stand them too. UKIP are anti-Westminster too. They are anti-Establishment but that includes politically correct "named person" type of establishments too.

Difference being one is a country the other a county.

A whole country can be left voiceless in the UK political system.

What nonsense claig. Scotland doesn't need UKIP. It already has an alternative to the big national parties in the form of the SNP, and I've not seen a single SNP dissenter on this thread say that they will vote for UKIP as an alternative.
You have completely misunderstood the Scottish political landscape if you think that.

'A whole country can be left voiceless in the UK political system.'

Yes, this is the crux of it. What takes precedence - the United Kingdom of whichwe are all a part, or Scotland as a country?

There was a referendum, and no part of the United Kingdom can prevent the United Kingdom as a whole doing what it wants to do unless it leaves the United Kingdom.

The SNP wants to leave. They lost recently. The next referendum will see a real opposition for them - a party that believes in the Union but is against the EU. I think things could change for the SNP. I think they may be near their peak.

Laughing at the thought of UKIP being anti-establishment.

'It already has an alternative to the big national parties in the form of the SNP'

But the "big national parties" are useless. There are more pandas in Edinburgh zoo, if I remember rightly, than there are Tory MPs in Scotland. Labour, the Establishment party, is in decline. The SNP have no real opposition any more. Democracy needs opposition, a challenge of ideas.

The "big national parties" are tired, they have no fire, they have no ideology, they have no belief - they are all the same neo-liberal parties in thrall to the market. Plus Jim Murphy and Margaret Curran etc as about as inspiring as a wet fish.

A fresh challenge will meet the SNP in the coming years and it will be UKIP.

"Laughing at the thought of UKIP being anti-establishment."

I know, but claig insists they are, often...I assume it's one of those, if I say it often enough it will become true things.

The SNP are anti the Westminster Establishment. Remember how all the Better Together parties united against them? and how they panicked and rolled out Gordon Brown - the clunking fist - to try and save them?

Watch the panic on Thursday night in Rochester, just miles outside of London. All of the same parties who were in Better Together will be panicking in the same way. They are the Establishment, the birds of feather who flock together, and UKIP are the cuckoo that will spoil their day.

YANBU. And it's so bloody boring.

You tried. You failed. Get back in your box.

There are bigger issues now to be getting on with.

This whole issue of No voters being discriminated against at work - I haven't seen it myself (but am appalled at the thought of it happening). I work for a big Scottish HE institution and there was a fairly even spread of Yes and No. The issue came up regularly and there were some very heated debates but nothing further than that. We just got back to business. Nobody seemed scared of speaking out.

DH works in financial services. He voted No but said he was disgusted by the chat the following morning about 'commies' and 'bead rattlers' being put back in their place. But thiswas just arrogant pricks who masturbate over money and the idea of winning.

Idiots will always shoot their mouths off, and I wouldn't worry about some dafty from Bella Caledonia threatening to exclude people from the country. Them and whose army? People here aren't stupid, the majority of us understand that we have to go on living together.

I think you're overestimating the power that UKIP has in Scotland - primarily because our demographics are very different to England, and in particular, the UKIP strongholds.

However, if we had got independence and we had seen the number of immigrants that the SNP talked about needing to grow our economy then I do believe that UKIP would have made inroads at some point in the future of an independent Scotland, absolutely. We would also have seen a resurgence in Tory support on the basis of them being a party of lower taxation.

The Yes campaign defeat brought about many benefits actually

But we can be hauled out even if every voter in Scotland votes to stay

Surely that was the point of the referendum. If you'd voted for independence then you'd be independent. Since you didn't then you are just a part of the UK.

As for voiceless I live in England and I don't recall being asked if I was ok with the UK being split up with all the possible repercussions to the economy. Strictly speaking there should have been a UK wide referendum to see if the UK was okay with Scotland having a choice.

I'd have voted YES to it being up to Scotland, but that's not the point.

Well apart from the fact it would be illegal, null and have no validity Janine.

I work in FS and there was none of that kind of language in my office Agent just a sense of quiet relief.

Strictly speaking there should have been a UK wide referendum to see if the UK was okay with Scotland having a choice

Strictly speaking? In your opinion of course.

That statement is quite chilling.

just a part of the UK

That's so fucking depressing to hear you think like that.