To think that the new SNP leader just pledged to ignore the will of the majority of Scottish people?

[RudeBarbandCustard]

Forgive me if I'm being naive - I may well be.

But Nicola Sturgeon pledging to continue to fight for Scottish independence is essentially a pledge to fight against the majority of the Scottish people's democratically expressed wishes?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423

I mean, it couldn't be clearer. The majority of Scottish people voted No. So she's essentially saying "Hey, majority of Scotland - I'm going to ignore what you voted for in a democratic process, and fight for the opposite!".

It smacks of arrogance, and a complete disregard for what people voted for!

I may be missing something though, but it's intriguing and bugging me so I'd be interested to hear what others think.

SirChenjin Did anyone see the interview with an SNP activist (or whatever she was) on the days leading up to it, where she blamed things on what was happening in South America?!

I must have missed that!

Just think though, if "the 45" are to believed, we are meant to boycott the BBC (it is dire but I like to make my own choices) and many leading newspapers, including The Times and The Telegraph, because they're all biased against Scottish independence. How long til they ban YouTube or certain politicians, so that all you have left is Nicola Sturgeon, Wings and Bella Caledonia!

SirChenjin can you link to the list, pls?
I was looking for it and couldn't see it?
Of course it must be stamped on and the fact the SNP aren't is deeply disquieting....

I think free tuition for Scots - if you stay in Scotland - can only have a negative affect on tolerance, looking outward, etc. It narrows the outlooks and aspirations of young people and encourages parochialism, imo.

The Welsh system, where students get a portable grant, would be much better for students and Scotland.

Found it - although it was Syria, my apologies. It's makes for beautiful viewing

And what makes it worse is that it wasn't a well-meaning activist, it was Christine Grahame MSP, who really should have had a better understanding of economics.

Sorry lonny I don't follow your logic re free tuition = parochial outlook. Can you expand?

MindReader Of course it must be stamped on and the fact the SNP aren't is deeply disquieting....

I wonder if the SNP will ever realise that a significant sector of society will never see them as a legitimate source of authority unless they get a handle on the thuggery and abusive element within their own party...or is that element so central to its function, they actually need it?

Lonny I think free tuition for Scots - if you stay in Scotland - can only have a negative affect on tolerance, looking outward, etc. It narrows the outlooks and aspirations of young people and encourages parochialism, imo

Yes, I agree. I think its a deliberate long term ploy by the SNP to educate into Scots a sense of parochialism and localism. Which of course would make Scottish independence more likely in the future.

I also think all this talk of banning organisations and companies, complaining about so many different media sources, etc. has the same aims.

Basically they want to control what you think, where you read stuff, what you hear, etc, so that eventually you will hear nothing other than SNP approved stuff. Why? Because its right, obviously. Its Scottish and it must be right. The SNP says so.

Chelsy, thanks for that very good interview with Gordon Brown.

Fascinating. I was reading just the other day how different politically the West of England is to the East of England and there is a much stronger Green presence in the West and the author said that it was due to it being more rural and the people being more closely tied to the land, and even the new age movement etc is much stronger there as people seek that out and move there for that reason in many cases.

The Peasant's Revolt of 1381 (which is similar to the UKIP Revolt) started in the same two counties of England - Essex and Kent.

We can't stand Labour here because we see them as authoritarian Big Brother DNA database, "named person" anti-liberty and individual freedom type nanny state party. It is amazing how those attitudes can persist over hundreds of years and shape people's views in different parts of the country.

So I think Gordon Brown may be on to something.

Also fascinating in that Dimbleby interview that Dimbleby says to Gordon Brown, how come 2 years ago nearly everyone thought a No vote victory would be quite easy and that now it is so close.

That ties in a bit with the excellent Radical Independence Campaign analysis where they suggested that the British State thought it would win quite easily and Cameron agreed to the timing etc, but that they had misjudged it and it ended up a lot closer than they thought.

I really dislike the policy of free tuition fees.

It encourages students to stay at home and attend the local uni, whether that course/uni suits you or not.

It doesn't help working class students either, IMO. Not enough of them are going to uni because the social gap is already too big at P7, never mind S6. Fees look good, but they're a sticking plaster rather than a cure.

Well Claig, people have always moved when things don't suit them in a country. Most Brits will have Anglo-Saxon or Norse ancestors somewhere. I've got grandparents from four different countries! I don't really have a problem with moving abroad, and I'm always astonished when people in Scotland sort of fall over themselves in shock that someone could possibly contemplate living somewhere else. Then again, you get those people who are still talking about Margaret Thatcher decimating the industrial heritage of Scotland and moaning about being unemployed ever since, and then you think, but your own grandfather moved to Scotland from Ireland for work, I've moved all over Europe for work, what is so special about you that you think the Government has a duty to provide you with work right on your doorstep all your life?

That sort of thing really doesn't go down well in some parts of Scotland, which is a shame because Scots are known throughout the world for their deeds and acts.

Its almost like there are two Scotlands now.

Sorry chelsy, again, your logic makes no sense re free tuition = brainwashed youth. That's hardly worked well in the many young voters who voted against independence. Is there an SNP imposed curriculum on higher education in scottish universities now? Are Scottish degrees now worth nowt because all students are learning is a narrow SNP focussed curriculum that teaches only SNP propaganda?

It's one thing to be unhappy with the way the SNP have reacted to the referendum results but to equate that with free higher education now being the tool of the SNP to brainwash students into parochial inward looking intolerance sounds more like the ranting much derided on here of the more 'radical' independence supporters.

Free higher education isn't an SNP policy dreamed up to manipulate the young into an SNP mindset - the Scottish LibDems fought hard for this to be maintained when negotiating with scottish labour to form an early coalition government after devolution. It just so happens that it's a policy that stands alone now in the UK since Nick Clegg capitulated to the Tories when negotiating the terms of a Westminster coalition, and is a policy the SNP recognise as being popular i.e. a vote winner.

Hi Tension you disagree with the argument. Whether or not you disagree with a poster's logic (as you have done with two posters now) is irrelevant. In other worlds, don't try to make it sound bigger than it is. hth.

To be frank, we need more comment on the effects of stuff like this in Scotland. Suggesting it doesn't have any impact is, in my opinion, teleological based thinking - in that you think of the outcome you want before you provide the reasoning for it. Why on earth wouldn't policies on education have an effect on the consumers of that education? And we need neutral overviews in Scotland over whether (as one poster up thread who is a teacher) pointed out, there is more emphasis in the schools curriculum on particularly Scottish influence in all subjects - she gave the examples of Scottish plants in Biology, Scotland's role in WW1, being studied, rather than more general perspectives.

I really don't think free education is some sort of machiavellian SNP plot - they've maintained the policy because it's a straightforward vote winner - although student support is being cut elsewhere, bursaries reduced etc.

I'm not entirely convinced flippinada. I don't see why it can't be offered over the UK, and it is a breach of EU law relating to free movement of services or illegal state aid - take your pick.

But it also, as again another poster up thread pointed out, enables a nice little industry to be maintained around student services and housing. Pass legislation to make it more difficult to provide housing for students except to those companies providing dedicated student housing blocks, give them planning permission to build it, then put up the prices to match student loans, and you've created a nice little protected, local industry right there.

"It encourages students to stay at home and attend the local uni, whether that course/uni suits you or not"

When I went to University (a very long time ago), I remember Scottish University courses were 4 years, because Highers finished when you were 17. Is that still not the case? Because if it is, that will also impact on the "where to go" decision.

I agree should be offered over the UK and not just in Scotland (if that's what you're saying).

They can offer free higher education because cuts are being made elsewhere - bursaries are going down and student loans are going up.

I take your point about loans and student housing.

Agree re the costs. Our eldest is going to University next year - the student loan he will receive just covers the cost of accommodation. Living costs such as food, travel, books etc will have to be met by us and by him working. Education has become a neatly controlled industry, you're right.

Flippinada When I went to University (a very long time ago), I remember Scottish University courses were 4 years, because Highers finished when you were 17. Is that still not the case? Because if it is, that will also impact on the "where to go" decision.

Students from Scotland have been going all over the UK (and abroad) for decades! (in fact hundreds of years, but that's another issue). One of my cousins went to Oxford, and there were three in his sixth year that year did including him. There is no difference for a Scottish student in going to an English, Welsh or Scots university, other than fees.

A few Scots students might only stay on until fifth year and then go on to university, which would make them 17, but that's nothing to do with a peculiarity of the Scottish education system that affects the majority of Scottish university applicants. Even from fifth year, many good students might still have 4, 5, 6 or more Highers and still be able to go onto university outwith Scotland.

I actually thought all universities, not just Scottish, used to encourage students to stay on until sixth year to get more life experience, even if they had the grades.

Then again, you get those people who are still talking about Margaret Thatcher decimating the industrial heritage of Scotland and moaning about being unemployed ever since, and then you think, but your own grandfather moved to Scotland from Ireland for work, I've moved all over Europe for work, what is so special about you that you think the Government has a duty to provide you with work right on your doorstep all your life?

Sorry if I'm being oversensitive, Chelsy but that feels like a dig after I explained to you about my family history - emigration from Ireland, grandfather was a miner, local industry decimated by Thatcher. My grandfather wanted to work and continued to take any work he could get. But who employs a 55 year old ex miner? When the whole village is out of work, almost? He died younger than either of his parents. People will never forget this and I don't blame them.I'm backing out for my own sanity. Respect to you but we clearly have very different impressions of Scotland.

Re: tuition fees, I agree with posters who say Scottish students should be able to take their free fees with them - that would really open things up, especially for families without much money.

Ah, ok I never knew that. I didn't grow up in Scotland though so still have a lot to learn. Would I be right in thinking standards are roughly equivalent to GCSEs?

Tension my point is that if you can be educated for free in Scotland then it is highly likely you will stay in Scotland for your higher education, unless your family is so wealthy that taking on fees and loans wouldn't matter to you.

So if you have a bright, poor child who should be trying for Oxbridge, for example, it's highly unlikely they'll even consider it, because they can go to their local uni for free. That is a narrowed aspiration - to only be able to consider a handful of universities in the UK because they are free.

Then, as Scottish universities become filled with Scottish young people, the quality of education will go down, as fees are capped. They therefore don't generate as much income, so can't attract the best teaching, etc.

Over the course of a couple of generations you'll then see 'local unis for local folk' emerging, which is pretty much the opposite of what I think the university experience should be.

And that's before I get into any ideological debate about what unis should be teaching...

And of course all this ism as you have pointed out yourself, at the expense of other kinds of further education...

Would I be right in thinking standards are roughly equivalent to GCSEs?

More or less, yes.

More and more pupils are staying on to sixth year, so they tend to be roughly the same age as their English counterparts when it comes to university.

Thanks Santana. I've been up here nearly 20 years, but there's still so much to learn.

As the free fees don't go with the students, they are limited in their choice of course.

Only two universities in Scotland offer the course my DD wants to study, so she has a choice of two places, not the usual 5 options available through UCAS. I think that is wrong.