To think that the new SNP leader just pledged to ignore the will of the majority of Scottish people?

[RudeBarbandCustard]

Forgive me if I'm being naive - I may well be.

But Nicola Sturgeon pledging to continue to fight for Scottish independence is essentially a pledge to fight against the majority of the Scottish people's democratically expressed wishes?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30011423

I mean, it couldn't be clearer. The majority of Scottish people voted No. So she's essentially saying "Hey, majority of Scotland - I'm going to ignore what you voted for in a democratic process, and fight for the opposite!".

It smacks of arrogance, and a complete disregard for what people voted for!

I may be missing something though, but it's intriguing and bugging me so I'd be interested to hear what others think.

AgentCooper Sorry if I'm being oversensitive, Chelsy but that feels like a dig after I explained to you about my family history - emigration from Ireland, grandfather was a miner, local industry decimated by Thatcher. My grandfather wanted to work and continued to take any work he could get. But who employs a 55 year old ex miner? When the whole village is out of work, almost? He died younger than either of his parents. People will never forget this and I don't blame them.I'm backing out for my own sanity. Respect to you but we clearly have very different impressions of Scotland.

Then we share very similar grandfathers, because as I posted upthread, one of mine was an Irish Catholic born in Shettleston who moved east and who converted to Protestantism to marry my grandmother (also an immigrant but from elsewhere). He was also a miner but changed careers in his early thirties, and I know even then that mining was considered something you absolutely got out of it you could because it was never a good, nice or reliable job. I agree its difficult for the mid fifties to change careers or even find similar level jobs even today, but for those in their forties it should still be possible to some extent. And its certainly not an excuse for their children and grandchildren or an entire village to say they can't find work. And I don't think that does happen - those with motivation get out and find work.

I think UK wide higher education is being gradually closed off to bright, poorer children. That makes me very sad..but that's another discussion so I will leave it there.

Well, I'll agree with you on the 'motivation' point. My grandfather was missing that towards the end of his life, suffering severe depression, longterm unemployed. Deprivation and poverty lasted a long time in their village because no jobs were funded to replace the hundreds of mining jobs which went. That takes a while to come back from.

Maybe my lot just didn't have that good old Protestant work ethic.

Agree Chelsy. My great grandfathers on my father's were all miners in Clackmannanshire - they did not want their sons to go into mining because it was a dangerous, life-limiting occupation with poor prospects, even at that time. Their sons were all encouraged to go into other careers, which they did.

SirChenjin - can you link to the list, pls? (apols if you have and I'm being dopey) I would be fascinated to see it.
I have met Christine Graham and liked her a lot but I was disquieted by the campaign to bring Berwick upon Tweed into Scotland if Scotland had gone Inde, which I think CG was heavily involved in.

I found this list on the Huffington Post site - who knew so many of Scotland's institutions had voted 'incorrectly'?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/21/scottish-independence-the-45_n_5857906.html

Lonny thanks for your explanation - I don't quite agree that free education in Scotland is the reason a bright yet poor student would be restricted in their choices of where to go- surely that's the tuition fees now being charged in the rest of the UK that does that? Not quite sure how charging tuition fees in Scotland will change the barrier to the likes of Oxbridge for that bright yet poor student. Unless I'm missing something? And why does the quality of students go down if the universities are filled with Scottish students? If that bright yet poor student is barred from applying to Oxbridge due to the prohibitive tuition fees, surely that means the quality of students 'settling ' for what is available in Scotland better quality? Again, maybe I'm missing the point but I don't follow your argument there, but happy to be educated on that. Are the numbers of students from outside scotland dropping as well? Surely the quality of students comes down to the exam criteria set for entry, and whether that's high enough, to determine the quality of students? I don't really know much about how the impact the CofE is having on exams & the results but is your suggestion that the CofE is reducing the standard of education in Scotland & that is therefore long term going to be the effect on the quality of Scottish students?

Chelsy - if you want to patronise me with 'hth' when telling me I'm making more of an issue than my question warrants, in your opinion, maybe have a wee think about the latter part of your post from 18.30 & tell me again I'm making more of this than you think is warranted - 'cos reading how the SNP are controlling the minds of the electorate is in my opinion over egging your assertion that free education = brainwashed electorate. Last I checked we are not in a dictatorship & my access to information/education/media is not on par with the likes of North Korea even if they did think independence was the way forward for Scotland.

By all means make your point but don't spout crap like the SNP are controlling information, what we read/think/hear. That makes you sound just a tad deranged.

I've reported my own post immediately above and asked for it to be deleted - I really do not want to get drawn into this topic. Happy to debate on Scottish Referendum issues.

Sorry Tension, should have made clearer from my earlier post - what I'd prefer to see is a portable grant so Scottish children could go wherever they want. A pp mentioned there are only 2 courses in the whole of Scotland in her dd's subject - I don't think that's choice.

On your other points I am not a fan of CForE but as only have a primary aged child I'm not able to comment on the overall standard of secondary students now coming out.

Good higher education is, IMO, about the widest possible pool and the widest possible range of experiences. I think being forced to stay near home is the antithesis of that.

Re the Bella Caledonia article I am actually in Cambodia at the moment. The tone and its sentiments could have come straight from Khmer Rouge dogma.

Tension I'm pretty sure influencing the content of school curriculums to a nationalistic perspective and taking national measures which have the effect of encouraging students to study in one part of their country and not another, would have an effect in any other country in the world, so why would Scotland be different? Suggesting that it doesn't, or couldn't, seems a tad wishful.

Again, maybe I'm missing the point but I don't follow your argument there, but happy to be educated on that. Are the numbers of students from outside scotland dropping as well? Surely the quality of students comes down to the exam criteria set for entry, and whether that's high enough, to determine the quality of students?

I think you are asking me why I said this was illegal under EU law? Charging English students higher fees than the rest of the EU is racial discrimination and also amounts to a breach of EU competition law in that it is illegal state aid. Its also likely a breach of the free movement of services provisions (although they aren't horizontally directly effective anyway so would be hard to enforce). Why has the European Commission not taken enforcement action against the UK for this? My guess would be that it actually doesn't know. Who would tell them? The UK doesn't have a written constitution (like Hungary, which it did tackle), no-one has brought a case, perhaps someone needs to report it to the Commission?

I would think it unlikely that it wouldn't have some effect on English students coming to study in Scotland - its a very unwelcoming and unfair policy, not one particularly designed to encourage students to want to come to Scotland. You would need some kind of survey on whether numbers had actually reduced, after a few years.

The White Paper stated that Scotland was so special and unique that EU law wouldn't apply to it on these points!

Lonny's point answers your question better A pp mentioned there are only 2 courses in the whole of Scotland in her dd's subject - I don't think that's choice.

The EU is built around the internal, or single, market. Its based on macro-economic principles such as increasing choice, safeguarding competition, removal obstacles to trade such as illegal state aid designed to promote home grown industries at the expense of non-home grown industries trying to move into them, dismantling cartels, encouraging free movement of people, services, goods and money across national borders, and so on.

Obviously most of the policies the EU Commission tackles will not be blatantly in breach of these, so they look at the usually look at the effect that they have.

SNP have a poor record on education. The implementation of Curriculum for Excellence was a farce and unsurprisingly pupils in the poorest areas now do far worse than their counterparts in the number of Highers they gain. The attainment gap has widened, which is hardly surprising given curriculum chaos and cuts in teacher numbers - without involved middle class parents many don't stand a chance.

But SNP's biggest crime is their savage cuts to college funding - 140,000 fewer people at college since they took power. As college provides a route to HE for those furthest from education, 'widening participation' funding for Universities is a farce if you have decimated the local college.

Thanks SirChenjin - really interesting!

Really useful programme just been on Radio 4, repeated tonight: After the Vote

I recommend listening if you're at all interested in the referendum and constitutional change.

No tuition fees enabled me to pursue a STEM degree in the UK and be the first in family to go to university back in the 90's. Has given me fantastic opportunities and I wished the same opportunities were around today.

I blame the universitys a lot for killing the 'golden goose' by offering Degrees in Madonna etc which kick started the move to scrap them.

Libdems support of no tuition fees was the only sweetener to make the bitter pill of a tactical vote easier to swallow.

Not surprised at all. Check back in history, the SNP only care about separation. During World War 2, the future leader (in the 1960s) was caught by MI5 with documents whereby Scotland would be allowed by the Nazis to lead our own country, leaving England to their fate. This is how much they are hell bent on their aim to split the country. I've lived in England and Scotland and know how much the Barnett formula adds to Scottish finances in a practical sense. SNP seem to think that all of those who sit around doing nothing are magically going to become tigers of commerce if they get their own way. I don't think I, as a Scot, am worth any more than my former neighbours in Hampshire. We all benefit from the ebb and flow of finances. Have you heard about the SNP plan to have a state guardian for every person until the age of 18 or older if in education. Who asked for that? EVERY CHILD. They are planning to replace all our road signs with dual language signs at a cost of almost £30million. Most of Scotland has never spoken gaelic. It makes me mad that so many people fall for their tartan lies and having been spat at and told I was a traitor by some of their supporters I find myself even more determined to ensure that they dont keep getting away with it. The referendum result was clear.... move on. You promised once in a generation, was it the lifetime of a person or a GNAT you meant?