to wish there was a way to make young women aim higher in their choice of boyfriends? (distressing story about child abuse)

[ReputableBiscuit]

First off, this young mother is categorically not to blame for what this awful man did to her child, and ALL the guilt belongs to him for his unforgivable crime and attempts to hide it. But AIBU to just wish she'd had more self-respect than to let a man with 38 prior convictions into her (and her baby's) life? How can we empower emotionally vulnerable young women to protect themselves from dangerous men? This happened local to me. It's so bloody sad.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30019395

Saying "Enough is enough" isn't going to change anything though, what do you think we should do?

Challenge the wah society treats women, so that the abuse people have detailed here no longer happens. Change a society where a man convicted of rape is allowed back into the public eye and a woman who stands up to him is then threatened with rape herself (Jessica Ennis-Hill).I am not interested in throwing my hands up and accepting violence, I am interested in change.

Both can be educated.

Men and women can learn that violence is not acceptable both can learn that it should not be tolerated both can learn that it does not make you an adequate parent or role model and both can learn that it is abuse and won't be glossed over.

FWIW the thought that our DDs might turn out to be the sort of woman attracted to total arseholes like these keeps some fathers awake at nights.

Agree with the sentiment callindana but how to achieve it?

How to achieve it? How did women get the vote, the right to work and be paid fairly, maternity pay, the right not be raped in marriage or have a child taken for adoption if they're a single mum? Do you think these things happened by accident? Believe it or not there was a significant number of women who opposed the suffragettes, who said women were asking too much. People will (hopefully) look back on our time and be surprised that women said men are violent we need to avoid their violence. It's a more insidious difficult problem than votes or pay (a problem that still isn't solved btw) but we are making headway. The inquiries into abuse by celebrities, slightly increased convictions for rape, Jessica Ennis-Hill's stand against the rapist Ched Evans, women taking a stand against rape culture through slutwalks and reclaim the night, the everyday sexism project, the counting dead women project etc etc. You can tut and say what can we do or you can join in. Up to you.

I know part of the story is that women are often very vulnerable because of the homes they were brought up in and the culture all around them, but how about we do a better job of keeping repeat offenders who are violent off the streets?

One question the article begs is 'How does someone walk around a free man when he has 38 convictions under his belt'?

It doesn't matter if the convictions are unrelated.
38 convictions beggars belief.

And in 22 years, when the hue and cry has died down, he will walk free again, on parole.

Treating violent offenders as they deserve to be treated is one good way to keep women safe. Allowing someone to walk around despite 38 convictions teaches only that there is no consequence for breaking the law. There should be no such thing as a hardened criminal walking free.

Quite right math.

I think this is a really odd thread, everyone basically arguing the same thing but falling out. Surely in order to do away with make violence society as a whole (including women) need to shun this and make it totally unacceptable. This is the point everyone is making in different ways. I can understand fatlazymummy's rage at the desperate single mum stereotyping and what does it matter why she is a single parent? Is the implication that she must have suffered abuse - not necessarily.

The point about the suffragettes is an interesting one - if they were around now there would be many on mn who opposed breaking the rules. ......

and most people would cross the Street to avoid this man, but use him as a babysitter.

I work in Fige, and I know a bit about this case and the context in which it happened. All I can say is that child abuse will keep on happening and that there are so many issues at play here that there are no simple solutions.

Does a man coming out of prison get a home provided, I suspect not, prob just a room in a hostel, but for a mother with several children housing will be provided by local SHousing. This gives the man a good reason to get to know a woman on her own with DCs.

My DS is in the police, recently an announcement from Gov said that keeping drug takers in prison fails but he disagrees totally, in his experience they come out of prison fit, well fed, healthy but sadly when they get back into their social group it's a matter of time before they go back to their old ways.

Support for the men might do more to save the women they move in with. Perhaps it's just too hard to raise money for a charity that provides voluntary support for ex convicts but that could help the situation.

I think it's understood that many offenders have mental health problems. Providing proper treatment for this could help too.

I read the article and thought how does this shit happen to poor innocent dc. Then thought hope the prick rots in jail.

Then I thought why the fuck did this mother let this man mind her dc.

So yes, I think they are both to blame and should both be punished.

callindana I just wanted to know what you would do. I agree with and support all you say for what that's worth.

I confess, I used to "victim blame". I couldn't understood how women let themselves get into these situations. I couldn't understand how they let themselves be taken in by smooth talking manipulative evil bastards. I couldn't understand how programmed they were by society to believe that to be single is to be worthless. How damaging their previous relationships had often been, leaving them vulnerable to the next one. How insidiously the situation could creep from a seemingly normal relationship, to one of abuse. How steadily they could be programmed by an evil man using carrot and stick, and psychological abuse. Then I had to grow up...because one small aspect of trying to protect a few of these poor kids started to be part of my job.

Yes, parents have a responsibility to protect their children. We all are responsible for our own freely made choices - but if you're living in terror, how free are your choices? Some evil men appear almost to have radar to detect the vulnerable woman, with her vulnerable children. He has usually picked her...because she's currently in no state to protect a goldfish.

So, hell yes, let women and good men stand up together and fight to fix our society. And yes, let us help build the self esteem of the vulnerable women, and catch young men young with the anti violence message. But in the meantime, can we keep the blame firmly where it belongs, with the violent evil manipulative asshole who deserves to rot in jail.

nocool

One of the perpetrator groups I used to facilitate had a member that opened the discussion one day by talking about how he would asses the woman and the likelihood of being able to control her by date 3, pretty much every other member had done much the same.

Needsasock how chilling! Obviously taking lessons from that idiot tgat change are trying to Ban from the UK.

You see it here nearly daily. A woman posts about a controlling man, and other women telling her to give him a chance, see it from his POV, try to do what he commands, 'sit him down for a chat'.

The only response to a controlling man is 'goodbye'.

cailindana

Living as though no man poses a threat ever is stupid.

A little caution goes a long way.

Strangers shouldn't kidnap children, but we still teach them stranger danger. It's not putting the blame on children for getting kidnapped, it's teaching them common sense that not everyone is a good person and they need to be aware of that and not trust everyone that is nice to them.

Telling someone to use caution doesn't put blame on the victim. A bad person will act bad regardless of what society says, so it's important to not trust everyone you come across.

The problem is that psychopaths don't give a damn about feminism or women's rights. They do not respond well to treatment or punishment. They have no empathy. While society figures out what it can do about this I would suggest that women take more care in their dealings with men they do not know well and be less trusting and more critical in their evaluation of them. Abusers (even lesser ones) will lie, lie and lie again to get what they want.

I am reading about the trial of Angus Sinclair who murdered two girls (Helen Scot & Christine Eadie) whom he met in the World's End pub many years ago. It is chilling to read how completely uncaring he was/is. He told those girls he would take them home when he had absolutely no intention of doing so. The girls were not sure about taking a lift from him (instincts/common sense working perfectly) but allowed him to talk them round or charm them with disastrous consequences. I do not blame them - they were very young, possibly a bit drunk and tired but they did make a very foolish decision. Maybe if the subject of women's poor choices were examined/discussed they might be less likely to make them. Is it lack of self-esteem, over confidence or just the inability of a nice/honest person to understand that there are others who are definitely not?

I do not absolve men from their violence or argue that society should not address it (Sinclair has received another life term but IMO he should have received a real life sentence for his very first murder of a 7 year old girl - he should not have been out on the streets in SIX years) but suggest that women take some personal control and look after themselves. Surely that is a sign of a healthy well adjusted woman - one who looks carefully at the actions of others and does not believe all that she is told in order to keep herself and her loved ones away from harm? One who does not accept responsibility for others' toxic behaviour but accepts it is her responsibility to keep it out of her life.

nocool the mother needs to take some responsibility. Why was this man alone with her child? I dont buy that he just flipped one day and did these things and she had no idea he was capable of it.

I've seen it before, not all woman with fucking evil men are vulnerable, stop living in a bubble.

Bulbasaur, where did I say we should live as if no man poses a threat?

That would be ridiculous way to live, seeing as 93.6% of murderers are men. Men are clearly a threat. And yet when I mentioned on this thread that men were a threat I got the usual some men finger-wagging.

The question is, how to do we know which men? This man had a criminal record, that's true but what about:
Claude Mubiangata who burned himself and his four children to death - no criminal record
David Mohoney who shot dead two of his children, injured the third and then shot himself - no criminal record
Cody Wygant, who suffocated his 16 month old son so he could play Xbox - no criminal record
Michael Pedersen who stabbed his two children to death then killed himself - no criminal record

That is just a very short list of the men in the last number of years who have killed their own children. Ordinary men, with jobs, who had never committed a crime. Saying we can somehow "educate women" to avoid these men makes no sense - how do we do that?

The problem isn't that women aren't "educated" enough. There are women out there who lack self esteem and make poor choices - but that is not a crime. What is a crime is killing children, and men are doing that, a lot. So clearly the problem lies with men, ie the ones who are actually doing the killing.

I read a Buzzfeed article - which was absolutely horrible, so I won't link it - about how in America, some women have been given sentences longer than the murderer of their children, for not preventing the murder.

Murder suicide is a different kind of crime though. There are well publicised cases of women doing it too.

93.6% of murderers are men

You got the finger wagging because that statistic is NOT

93.6% of men are murderers.

And because you seem to be repeating the fallacy that women can not or should not take any measures to avoid such men, but should just wait for men to stop... Yes the problem lies with some men, the ones who do kill. But women deserve to be accorded full adult status - something your rhetoric seems to withhold.

Especially given the research that shows that when women do kill they tend to kill family members "By and large women kill children in their own family - they are intra-familial [killers] - and they tend to smother, strangle and poison, and only occasionally they will stab. That is the pattern" - Prof David Wilson (2013) based on Home Office statistics.

...which makes your last post disingenuous!