to wish there was a way to make young women aim higher in their choice of boyfriends? (distressing story about child abuse)

[ReputableBiscuit]

First off, this young mother is categorically not to blame for what this awful man did to her child, and ALL the guilt belongs to him for his unforgivable crime and attempts to hide it. But AIBU to just wish she'd had more self-respect than to let a man with 38 prior convictions into her (and her baby's) life? How can we empower emotionally vulnerable young women to protect themselves from dangerous men? This happened local to me. It's so bloody sad.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30019395

When ever you start a new relationship you naturally do some risk assessing - many murders are committed by the unlikeliest people - how often do you hear "he always seemed so nice" " I can't believe he would do such a thing", so many people killed by their partner are not the victim of DV and could never have foreseen this and nothing in their past or character points to this.

But then you come to men such as the killer in this case and as soon as you get to his history any risk assessment would mean to most of us that this man is someone to avoid if you created a scoring matrix this would put him as a "no" from the start - but unfortunately we are human and so many factors mean that women overlook things like this. Each case is so unique that it is hard to generalise as to how can be prevented.

Again, why are we blaming women for male violence..?

I feel like both these problems are sides of the same feminist coin - male violence against women and children needs dealing with, as does the conditioning that women being single is a failure and any partner is better than none. Both should be targeted, it's not either-or

The womani have as an example, wasn't to blame for his violence.

She was to blame for repeatedly making the same mistake, with prior warnings that in all likelihood, he would be violent towards her and her children. She didn't care or didn't believe.

Was there really any need for that Tinkerball?

In fact, is there any need for this thread at all?

Her child was murdered by somebody else. It's beyond poor taste to be blaming her.

How about teaching men not to beat toddlers to death?

*^men kill women and children

the world needs to recognise that men pose a serious risk to women and children^

SOME men. Some men kill.*

#notallmen

FFS I said in the OP 100% of the blame is on him. I explicitly said she's not remotely to blame.

But can't we all agree it would be better if she'd never hooked up with him? It just makes me sad that a young woman with a lovely kid and a home would see such a specimen as a worthy partner.

I totally agree with you, OP, and I would have bet my last tenner this would turn into a victim blaming discussion.

Of course it would have been better if she hadn't hooked up with him. I'm not sure why you're focusing on that though. One person made a bad choice of partner and one person murdered a child. Surely the person who murdered a child is the bigger problem? Having poor taste in men isn't a crime. Besides there was no indication she even knew about his past.

Some women just see the good in these men, later on unfortunately they reveal who they really are.

I totally agree with cailin here.

I agree with the thread title, and was persuaded by the OP, but am grateful to be reminded that this societal problem is not something we should accept is a women's problem.

The murderer was (as is usually the case) a man.

The main problem is male violence. Not women's poor choices in boyfriends.

We'd do well to tackle the underlying assumption that a woman without a partner is a failure. It's no great shock that there are some women who view any man as better than none at all: they didn't come up with this idea by themselves.

I agree completely with this, not just for the safety of children but their sense of security too. I have a few friends (who have never, and their children have never been in a violent situation) but they do go from one crap relationship to the next sometimes being exploited financially (for what little they have) sometimes feeling low and un confident because he doesn't pay much attention or hes always with his mates, because just being alone with their own dc is unthinkable to them.
I worry most for one in particular with 3 dd's they really are growing up with the idea that you're nobody unless you're with somebody and of course the other message that they are not enough to make their mum happy.

I can't believe anyone is taking issue with cailindana's completely uncontroversial statement. Yes, women should be empowered enough not to view being single as failure/to choose partners who don't replicate abuse they may have normalised since childhood, but male violence is the problem, not female self-esteem or 'poor taste'. To argue otherwise is akin to making rape a 'female problem'. In neither case are women (generally) the perpetrators.

I agree with the op as well. I know a couple of women in this situation, they knowingly allowed boyfriends with drink/drug problems and a history of abuse to move into their children's homes. Thankfully nothing too bad happened to any of the children (who were older, therefore at least able to protect themselves a little) . At least as far as I know.
If the children had suffered then yes, I would have held the mothers responsible to some degree ,and I told one of them that. She was a friend of mine and I understood her need for and love for her boyfriend but her responsibility to her children should have come first.
Don't allow anyone to come near your children if you know they have been, or are potentially violent. It's as simple as that.

fatlazy - so in that situation we have women and men. The women are trying to bring up children on their own (presumably because the father is either entirely absent or only sees them once a week) and are desperate for a relationship, for companionship, love, support etc. Because of how single mothers are viewed in society and possibly due to upbringing/past abuse/lack of self esteem they don't value themselves enough to hold out for a decent partner. The men are violent people with drug problems who see a desperate woman with children and take advantage of that for their own gain. Who do you think is the bigger problem in that scenario - the mother who chooses a bad relationship or the man who wants to get a free ride while treating the mother (and possibly her children) like shit?

For once, I want to see the spotlight on these pieces of shit that deliberately look for vulnerable women and abuse them or their children. For once, I want to see that we're examining the behaviour of the person who actually committed the crime not the person who happens to be a woman.

Amen to that.

cailindana I'm a single parent myself. I know what it feels like.
Of course the person who commits the crime is responsible, but there is such a thing as 'enabling' and being an 'accessory'.
They are both part of the crime. That's all I'm saying.
Some single mothers do have some serious problems, and in fact I could have easily gone down that road myself. They do need help and support. That still doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to provide a safe enviroment for their children.
Someone compared it to blaming a rape victim for her rape. Of course the rapist is responsible , at the same time would you welcome a known rapist into your home? Be alone with them? Allow them to be alone with your children? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Oh I thought I was on the Daily Mail website for a moment here, these victim blaming statements are remarkably similar to the comments under the DM article about this...

Agree with you fatlazymummy and BigKids. Some men ARE scum and are wholly responsible for their actions but women need to learn to recognise them and stay away from them as well. If you are a parent you ARE responsible for your children and it is up to you to be aware of the reality that some people (not just men) are dangerous and should not be allowed anywhere near them. Sadly some women will put their own love/sex/social life first at the cost of their children's safety. Would people be so ready to stick up for a woman who left the kids home alone or was drunk in charge of them causing them harm? Why does making unsafe choices with men get a free pass?

Personally I think some women should read the comments left by some men on the Daily Mail - it would certainly knock their rose tinted glasses off regarding the male sex. Some of them are horrible and it's obvious that they HATE women (but still like to have as much sex with them as possible) - wake up ladies and learn to take a bit more care in your choice of partner. We don't live in a perfect world where every man is decent - you have to act accordingly.

As for 'blaming' women if they don't realise and admit when they are getting it wrong there is little chance of them ever getting it right. If you don't recognise the red flags of abuse and keep jumping in to bad relationships it won't really help you if everyone pats you on the back and says none of it was your fault. Much better to point out that there are better ways of having a relationship and that making poor choices will have inevitable negative consequences - sometimes irrevocably affecting your children. Don't leave it to luck or his decision to be decent - check him out thoroughly BEFORE you let him into your life.

Fatlazy she absolutely was not an accessory to the crime. To say she was an accessory implies that she was criminally responsible for it, which she was not. She did not want her child to be beaten to death.

There is no indication that she knew of his past behaviour. I wouldn't let a known rapist into my home, but I would let a man I trusted and loved into my home. Clearly if she left her child with him she believed he was trustworthy. Trusting people who then betray that trust is not a crime.

"Would people be so ready to stick up for a woman who left the kids home alone or was drunk in charge of them causing them harm?"

Seriously northwitch? Leaving children home alone or with a drunk person amounts to neglect. Leaving them with someone you've had a relationship with and someone you trust is not neglect. I'm sure if this poor mother knew that her child was in danger from this man she would never have left her daughter with him - why would she? Or are you saying she knew there was a danger and left her anyway? In which case, the mother would be culpable and up on charges. Seeing as she has not been charged with anything, it's safe to say she committed no crime, she simply trusted someone who wasn't trustworthy.

The thing is, the impulse to blame women and make excuses for men is so ingrained in the way we are taught to think about these crimes of male violence.

I'm a feminist, I know it is important to stop blaming women for violent crimes committed by violent men against them and their children.

I understand that it isn't right that the first question is "why didn't she leave?" instead of "why did he beat her to death?"

I accept that asking questions about women's blameless (even if unwise) actions as your first line of inquiry is massively problematic.

And yet still I needed cailin to remind me with her posts here that it's not OK to use the murder of this woman's daughter as a jumping point for a discussion about women's low standards for male behaviour.

Even though that is a conversation I believe has merit.

It's not the case that women have low standards for male behaviour, society in general has low standards for male behaviour. That is the problem.

Yes, I agree.

But those societal low standards feed (in combination with other ideas about the importance of relationships, and the low value of women in and of themselves) into the low standards of male behaviour a lot of women accept as normal.