to wish there was a way to make young women aim higher in their choice of boyfriends? (distressing story about child abuse)

[ReputableBiscuit]

First off, this young mother is categorically not to blame for what this awful man did to her child, and ALL the guilt belongs to him for his unforgivable crime and attempts to hide it. But AIBU to just wish she'd had more self-respect than to let a man with 38 prior convictions into her (and her baby's) life? How can we empower emotionally vulnerable young women to protect themselves from dangerous men? This happened local to me. It's so bloody sad.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-30019395

To prevent women hooking up with suitable men we need as a society to build the self esteem of young women and encourage self respect.

There is so much wrong with society today that conspires against women being mentally strong enough not to rely on a man (any man) regardless of their background.

It's all very sad.

Less than 50 years ago, if you were a single mother you were a pariah. Thousands of women were forced to give up children against their will while the men just walked away. We've come out of those times but single mothers are still looked down on and made to feel like scroungers while the fathers face little or no judgement and can easily escape paying maintenance. Women are also warned endlessly about the perils of divorce and the lack of a father figure. In those circumstances is it really surprising that single mothers sometimes stick with bad men? Where are all the articles criticising the millions of men who never bother with their children? Where's the thread criticising this little girl's father? Where was he when she was being beaten to death?

The mother isn't to blame if this was the man's first time laying a hand on her child. Otherwise, this is partially her fault as well.

As a mother (and father!), your job is to protect your child and that includes using discretion as to who you allow in your life around them. If you let a partner abuse your child, you've fucked up as a parent and deserve to have your child taken away.

Really though, I can't imagine this was his first time acting like a dick. She's not to blame for his actions, but she is responsible for allowing a man like that into her life around her child. Unfortunately this is a decision she'll have to live with the rest of her life.

I don't know my opinion may be unpopular but in my experience as l single parent it is your responsibility alone to ensure the safety of your child and to properly vet who enters their lives. yes is a perfect world men shouldn't be violent full stop but I can't make decisions based on the fact that I shouldn't be victimised. the reality is women are targets for these awful men and the only one who has the power to keep them out of your life is you and you alone.

before anyone says it, it isn't victim blaming rather it is taking control of your life and the situations you enter. there are horrible people out there avoiding them at all costs is the best you can do.

obviously I don't know this mother or what she was daybreak of his past but from my experience people in their 20's with 38 convictions aren't very good at pretending they are pillars of the community.

that poor excuse of a man can never be punished enough for what he did to that innocent child.

my heart breaks for that poor little Angel.

I made some pretty ridiculous choices in men when I was younger. I was aware they weren't great men. But I just wanted a bit of attention and companionship and I thought they were the best I could do

I like what someone up thread said about seeing men as a force of nature and women are just supposed to know to stay out of their way.

My Nana very much has that attitude. I remember her telling me a story about some neighbours of hers (going way back- the 1950's) where the man had killed the baby while the Mum was out getting her hair done.
Her attitude was very much that male violence is inevitable and the Mum should have gone without the haircut rather than take the risk.
This was told to me as a cautionary tale when I was preparing to go back to work and leave DH has full time carer

She's lived with male violence all her life and her attitude is absolutely that it is inevitable, it has to be put up with and its the woman's fault if something goes wrong

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/punch-in-head-left-tot-fighting-for-her-life-court-told-30688806.html

This one happened near me

Cailindana - she trusted someone that she had not known for very long with a vulnerable child. I also find it hard to believe that he had not shown any red flag behaviour - the signs are usually there and she probably was in denial about them because she preferred to be in a relationship. If she preferred to get blind drunk instead of being blind in a relationship she would be getting slated for it. Both unwise choices - why is one OK and one not? Once you are a parent it is not just about you anymore - your child can only suffer from your poor choices as they have no power to make their own.

You are the responsible adult - and that includes assessing suitability of partners as well as not drinking too much etc.

If woman want equality then they have to take the responsibility that comes along with that. Actions have consequences - hook up with a toxic person and poison in some form will enter your life. I get fed up with women making stupid decisions and people rushing to defend them. Your child's safety and well being comes first and if there is any doubt you move slowly and carefully - you find out whether someone has convictions and what they are for BEFORE you let him into you and your children's life. Flinging yourself into relationships with men you barely know especially when you have DC's to think of is irresponsible IMO.

As I have already said, if women are making mistakes in choice of partners it is not until they admit the reality of this that they can start to change their behaviour and have more control in their life by making better choices. That is empowerment to me. Yes society will devalue you, stigmatise you for being a single mother, treat you less fairly than the other sex but you have a mind of your own - you do not have to agree with it - you can choose an alternative direction - you can refuse to play the game and honour your own inherent self esteem instead but that often means work,sacrifice and the hard road and not every woman is prepared to do without a love/sex/social life (even temporarily) for the sake of her children.

I feel so sad for the poor mother in this case, don't you think she is already blaming herself enough for the death of her child? Abusers can come across as very convincing at first, seductive, caring, how was she supposed to know he would beat her child to death? Shocked by the lack of compassion and the self righteousness on this thread. Men's violence is always men's responsibility. She has not been convicted by the courts of any negligence, which she would have been questioned by the police about. Even when he was arrested by the police, she was still defending him. She had no way of knowing what a monster he would turn out to be.

We don't know the full details of the cas awholelottanosy so it is unfair to condemn this particular mother.I'm sure you're right, she will be tortured with guilt and my heart goes out to her for that.
At the same time, men are more likely to murder their partners children ,rather than their own children, therefore bringing another man into the home has to be seen as a risk factor, because statistically it is. If the man is known to have a record of violence then that increases the risk and you can't ignore that without being negligent yourself. Not responsible, but still negligent.

cailindana I didn't say she was an accessory, you misunderstood me.
If she knew he had a history of violence then she should not have left her child with him, because that gave him an opportunity to be violent to her child. Therefore she would be responsible to that extent.
If she didn't know anything and he had pulled the wool over her eyes of course that's different. We don't know the full story, which was why I was commenting in general, not specifically on her case.

It can be hard to spot abusers which is why women need to learn to be more careful (personally I think a man with umpteen convictions should have been one of the easier ones to spot). Yes men are responsible for their violence but as women we know that such men exist and should be learning to take steps to avoid them. It is not just women btw who suffer from violent men - men can be their target too and have to learn avoidance strategies as well. It's not just a feminist issue.

Sometimes it is just as simple as taking your time, not allowing yourself to get carried away in the first flush of romance/attraction and keeping your feet on the ground and really taking a good look at what is in front of you, what is being offered and what the price is. It is very easy to be attracted to someone who is not a good person and be in denial about their poor character which is why extra care is needed. Not very romantic or sexy but absolutely essential especially if you have children. You are often their only line of defence against people who would harm them remember that.

None of the comments on this board could be anywhere near as harsh as the reality of the consequences faced by the mother for her poor choice of partner or those experienced by her daughter left to face a violent abuser on her own. It's not victim blaming - in order for women to make better decisions they need to understand firstly that they are making poor relationship choices and take responsibility for their part in it. If you would rather be with any old guy than on your own then you need to take a look at that. If you are jumping too quickly into relationships then that is risky too. As parents you are bringing a partner into your children's life as well as your own - is it too much to expect that women take a bit more care and time when doing so? We live in a world where some men have vile attitudes towards women. They are not going to tell you this. They can be attractive and charming. They will lie to you. They will harm you and your children. They don't give a stuff about feminism and your rights. They will not change. It's your mission in life to STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THEM!

So northwitch, according to you, women:
need to learn to be more careful
should be learning to take steps to avoid violent men
need to take their time
need to not get carried away
need to keep their feet on the ground
need to take a good look at what is in front of them
need to make better decisions
need to understand that they are making poor relationship choices
need to take responsibility for their part in poor relationships
need to take a look at their preference for being with any old guy rather than on their own
need to take a bit more time and care when choosing partners

And they need to do all this, while, as you say in your other post, while society will devalues them, stigmatises them for being a single mother, treats them less fairly than the other sex.

But that doesn't matter, women just need to overcome it by refusing to play the game.

As for men, some of them have vile attitudes, which they'll hide. They will act attractive and charming and lie, they will harm your children. They will not change.

So most of all, women need to stay away from these men who hide everything negative about themselves. How they figure out who these men are isn't clear - perhaps you could give some details?

Overall though it sounds really easy. I mean what do women have to complain about. Why didn't we think of all these easy steps before? All this feminism nonsense is pointless, we should follow your guidance. Women just need to accept what they're given and deal with it. Great.

BTW is there anything men need to do? Or do they just get to do as they please?

cailindana so, do you think women should accept no responsibility for bringing violent men into their children's lives then? What about if he's a paedophile ?
TBH as a single parent myself I'm finding your attitude rather patronising now.
Society makes me feel a bit shit so I can bring any Tom dick or harry into my home , leave them to baby sit, without even thinking about how suitable they are . Yeah right.

Eh, no fatlazy. There is never an excuse for neglect.

I doubt this mother wanted her child to die. As far as she was concerned she was leaving her daughter with someone who could be trusted to look after her.

If she left her daughter with someone she knew to be dangerous, then that is neglect, and she should be brought up on charges. If she left her with someone she believed would look after her, then that's something parents do all the time. We all trust people to look after our children. The person she trusted betrayed that trust and killed her daughter. He is the one to blame for that.

Saying that women need to somehow predict all the behaviour of men at all times and somehow avoid it makes no sense. MEN need to stop behaving like such animals.

You do whatever you can to be a good mother to your children. That does not mean that someone won't come along and hurt them some day. Blaming women for the behaviour of men only serves one purpose - to ensure that society will continue to hold women responsible for things they didn't do.

Where is anyone blaming women for the behaviour of men? I think you're arguing at cross purposes to be honest.
Everyone is responsible for their own behaviour of course.
As a single parent though, I am also responsible for thinking very carefully about who is allowed into my home and who is allowed near my children. My personal feelings about that person are not the only factor.Some single mothers do not do that unfortunately, and yes it does happen.
I'm not commenting about this particular case because I don't know enough details about whether she was justified in trusting her child with him.

Just to add, whilst she couldn't possibly predict he would kill her daughter, she could possibly have predicted several other things. Assuming his criminal record of 38 convictions , including some for violence wasn't a secret, and he wasn't living under a new identity.

• he would possibly be violent again
• he would possibly break the law again
• he could possibly involve her in breaking the law, hide things in her house (happened to a friend of mine)
• attract other criminal to her children's home.

Now, what part of that indicates a trustworthy babysitter or step parent to you?

What you seem to be saying is that if a person has multiple convictions, especially if they include violence, people should be made aware of that and that the general attitude should be that that person shouldn't have a relationship with a person who has children. In fact, it might be worth having an attitude that a person with violent convictions be excluded from all relationships, or from having children of their own? What do you think?

god forbid that parents should want to keep their kids away from violent psychopaths.

Yes god forbid Nancy. I mean, violent psychopaths have a clear tattoo right on their forehead, how on earth could anyone miss that? Clearly these stupid women don't care about their children. Oh and those poor violent psychopaths, you can't actually expect them to stop murdering children can you? Of course not, it's all up to women to identify them, know what they're going to do and prevent them from doing it. If women fail in their duty, well what do they expect? A murdered child is inevitable.

My daughters are 19 and 15. Their friends seem to be mostly from what would be considered good homes.

But the number of tales I have heard from them about abusive, controlling, horrible boyfriends is shocking.

DD1's best friend spent her sixth form years with a lad who told her what to wear, who insisted she stayed at his on Saturday nights, but spent the evenings with his mother, while he went out on the town with his mates until the small hours, and who blatantly tried to get off with DD at every possible opportunity. DD1 eventually fell out with her, due to his isolating demands.

Fortunately the friend has gone to a University, immediately had an epiphany about her horrid boyfriend's behaviour and dumped him. Her bloody stupid, enabling mother is now claiming she was never that keen on him. Well you could have fooled us love.

I spend so much of my time pointing out red flags to my daughters, but I feel like a voice crying in the wilderness. So many women are fine with horrible behaviour.

Why do you think that is Tinkly?

have no idea what point you're arguing. You just seem to be ranting for the sake of it.

Fair enough Nancy. No need to engage with me then.

I went to school, right from reception, with a guy who was always cruel and frightening. At 25 he killed his girlfriends baby while she was on a night out. He went to prison and then, amazingly came back to live in our village. Everyone knew what he had done. But within a couple of months he was seeing another young woman, the cousin of a friend of mine. The young woman even wanted to bring him to my friend's wedding and thought her objections were completely unreasonable. Because who is bothered about sharing their big day with a child killer

Do you know Cailin I really don't know. This particular friend of DD's, her mother had been married a few times, had a poor track record with picking men but surely that would make you more cautious about who your daughter took up with? Ironically this Mum was always very overprotective when the girls were young, very wary of us when we moved to the village because we came from the rough side of town. Yet she quite happily encouraged her daughter to go out with a really horrible lad.