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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sick of personality disorder being used as an excuse for bad behaviour?

309 replies

fluffydressinggown · 09/11/2014 13:58

I see it all the time on here, people say their partner/friend/family member has behaved badly and someone comes along and says maybe it is a personality disorder.

Personality disorder does not necessarily make you a bad person or give you bad behaviour. Some people are just dicks. Not dicks with a mental health problem.

OP posts:
WhereAmIGoing · 09/11/2014 17:31

fluffy I disagree with you. Yes sometimes people will ask 'are you sure it's not PD or AS ie whatever' when actually the guy is just a twat.
But sometimes too, that person might act and do things that are hurtful because they have an issue that hasn't been spotted by anyone before. This might be because the diagnosis hasn't existed for that long (eg AS wasn't diagnosed when my DH was a child), maybe they have never dare or been able to explain to their gp what us going wrong in their life.

I know that finding out about AS made a hell of a difference to my relationship to him. I learnt about it reading from others experiences, people who were in similar position.
And then later on, DH read more about it and acknowledged that he is very probably on the spectrum.
What that realisation did is to allow us to change the way we interact to one that fit better DH. By doing that we have reduced stresses, I got to understand him better and he got to understand me better too (mainly because I have been telling him clearly instead of thinking he would be able to guess from little clues).
But it all started with people saying 'Don't you think he might be on the spectrum?'
It gave me the possibility to look at things in a different way.
But it didn't mean I had to just put up with bad behaviour. It gave me tools instead (well to me but also to DH!).
It doesn't mean that all people with AS are going to be difficult to live with, arse and twat behaviour. Just as it doesn't mean all people with PD have awful behaviours.
It means you are giving to a poster a possibility to explore, a possibility to make things better (if it is PD/AS or whatever), it gives the latter who might have an actual undiagnosed problem a chance. And that Makes it worth it.

Chippednailvarnish · 09/11/2014 17:40

Wine Raffe

itsgot you have inadvertently reiterated the point I've tried to make - manifest in the person creating very dramatic, up and down, all or nothing romantic relationships

Relationships being the keyword, if you have a PD it will affect your relationships. It won't only be targeted behaviour towards one person and only one person and only that relationship.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 09/11/2014 17:40

Oh Garlic you are unintentionally hilarious.Grin

I must ensure my team consult the collective wisdom of a bunch of unverified randoms on Mumsnet in the future.

It'd save us all those months of careful assessment.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 09/11/2014 17:41

And there are too many people on the Rel board who seek to offer support to the partner of a third party by attempting to diagnose him on the back of subjective posting- which may be accurate or it may not.

LilAnnieAmphetamine · 09/11/2014 17:46

Posted too soon-

Garlic I quote - Diagnosing an OP's relationship problem is a different kettle of fish.

NOT when it involves a bunch of people deciding he/she is a narcissist or sociopath or histrionic or schizotypal or anxious avoidant on the basis of what is said on here.

raltheraffe · 09/11/2014 17:54

According to MN I am a sociopath with ASD.
According to my consultant psychiatrist I am neither.
I know who I believe.

GarlicNovember · 09/11/2014 18:05

I can't possibly argue with so many people who absolutely know that they are right ...

exWifebeginsat40 · 09/11/2014 18:30

bells yes, we're all AWFUL.

how lovely.

LemonChicken · 09/11/2014 18:35

Relationships being the keyword, if you have a PD it will affect your relationships. It won't only be targeted behaviour towards one person and only one person and only that relationship.

Chipped, so what about the man with avoidant personality disorder who you and I just see as a bit stand offish. As a bit socially awkward and shy. He has NO real relationships apart from his wife. Never has had. The only other non-superficial relationship he has ever had in his entire life was with his ex girlfriend. Everyone else in his life is a mere acquaintance, or a work mate, or someone he plays football with once a week. He doesn't make friends easily. He is the opposite of a social butterfly. Because of his PD he keeps people at arms length. Because of his PD he is often viewed a bit of a loner. His wife sees the WHOLE range of behaviour purely because she has a far more indepth relationship with him, compared to all his other superficial relationships. It's not surprising that many people with APD don't marry or have long term relationships. It is very wrong and very thoughtless of you to imply that just because this man's "avoidance to the point of it being a mental illness" is not apparent to many people around him that he is just faking it. That his diagnosis is just false.

And what about the woman with dependent personality disorder. She isn't difficult to get on with at all. Again, definitely not on fairly superficial levels. She is easy to get along with, always eager to please. Because her personality disorder tells her she has to be liked, so chances are you and I could find her easy going. When she says she would like Chinese for dinner, and we come along and say we fancied Indian, and she goes along with us with a smile. We can't be expected to know that she may just be agreeing with our choice as that's what her PD tells her to do. We think she is just an agreeable person. Do we even stop to think that's because her PD is telling her she can't disagree because she could lose the support and approval she craves so much? None of what she shows to friends and colleagues and neighbours is necessarily what she shows to her husband. She is EXTREMELY scared of being alone, this can put MAJOR pressure on a marriage, but doesn't necessarily have to be visible at all to mere friends. It is highly possible that a woman could be diagnosed with DPD, yet not let it show to anyone apart from her husband. Yet you're happy to dismiss this too. Her diagnosis must be false too.

Have you any idea how offensive you are being?

or for that matter, how silly you are being.

How can you dismiss a diagnosis that a psychiatrist has taken months to reach, purely because that diagnosis doesn't fir your narrow world view of "well if the behaviour is only visable to the husband or wife it's not a real personaility disorder". Could it not just be that the sufferer is in a position (like some ASD kids are in school), to control their behaviour in some circumstances and the "true them" shines through in their home environment?

Do you also make a point of going on to threads where parents bemoan the fact that the teacher is forever telling them how well behaved their aspergers suffering daughter or son is in school, while the parent suffers meltdowns twice a week straight after school, along with a variety of other very blatant ASD bahviours? Do you tell those parents that their children aren't really on the spectrum, they have a a wrong diagnosis, that theire children are just manipulative little shits? Afterall, by your way of thinking if they can behave normally at school, then surely they must be able to at home.

LemonChicken · 09/11/2014 18:37

I can't possibly argue with so many people who absolutely know that they are right ...

why ever not when you obviously have no difficulty in arguing that psychiatrists and psychologists routinely make wrong diagnosis's just because the symptoms aren't readily visible to a wide enough group of people to suit your opinion?

Flowerfae · 09/11/2014 18:38

Jasonandyawegunorts
'Yes, "maybe he has Autism" springs up a lot too.'

That really drives me mad, not so much from other people, but when it comes from my mum when she's speaking about my stepdad (who has drinking problems and gets very nasty when he's drunk) she tells me she thinks he is autistic .. my DS has autism, and DS has never been nasty to anyone.

LemonChicken · 09/11/2014 18:49

I stand by what I say. If only one person ( normally your partner) is the only person on the receiving end of a personality disorder but you are perfectly capable of being reasonable with everyone else (including people close to you) then you are selecting how you treat them. If you truly had a PD your behaviour might deteriorate in the home environment, but it wouldn't only be your partner on the receiving end (unless you are living on a desert island and there are only two inhabitants).

again Chipped - what about the person with AvoidantPD who never gets close to anyone? Do you even know what avoidance, at the level of personality disorder is? You do understand that some people just never form close relationships? That doesn't mean that none of them ever get married. But it does mean that some of them are experts at "going through the motions" of appearing normal enough at the once a week football game, normal enough to get through life with most people not noticing anything more than "she's quite shy" or "he's quite stand offish" or "she is a bit of a loner". For this type of person it's hardly rocket science to think that the one person who DOES notice their personality disorder is their wife or husband, the only person who knows them intimately. It would be quite unlikely for anyone else to notice as the person suffering from it simply doesn't let other people get close enough to ever notice it.

But hey, don't let the facts, or a diagnosis made by a professional psychiatrist get in the way of your narrow thinking.

Goldmandra · 09/11/2014 19:38

autism and ASD are armchair diagnosed on MN as well and used to excuse abusive behaviour when again the reality of autism and ASD is very different.

I could introduce you to several parents who have been subject to abusive behaviour by their children with Autism. Physical aggression and controlling behaviour are relatively common features of the condition. Those parents don't accept this behaviour or condone it but it still happens and Autism is the reason behind it.

If those parents read a post about similar abusive or controlling behaviour from an OP who could not understand the actions of their loved one, it would be perfectly appropriate for them so suggest that the OP considers ASD as an explanation. That gives that person the opportunity to read more about the condition and raise the possibility of an assessment by professionals if appropriate.

Raising the possibility isn't diagnosis, internet, armchair or otherwise. It is offering a suggestion. I have never seen a poster 'declare' someone to be autistic based on internet posts or claim to be qualified to do so.

GarlicNovember · 09/11/2014 19:42

that psychiatrists and psychologists routinely make wrong diagnoses

What? I haven't argued anything of the sort!

I liked your other post, Lemon.

suspiciousandsad · 09/11/2014 19:44

I have posted this weekend as I suspect my DH has NPD. He ticks all the boxes. It has really helped me to investigate it and understand his behaviour.

However, I am always careful to explain that he may just be a complete bastard.

GarlicNovember · 09/11/2014 19:45

Raising the possibility isn't diagnosis, internet, armchair or otherwise. It is offering a suggestion. ... That gives that person the opportunity to read more about the condition

This. It's the whole point.

Chippednailvarnish · 09/11/2014 19:47

Lemon you clearly haven't read or understood what I have written.

Using your first example, the man who has difficulty forming relationships would have more than likely had the same issues with his wife and his ex-girlfriend, because his PD affects his ability to form and all relationships. Hence his isolation.

The woman with DPD might put her marriage under strain, but she's more than likely unhappy with all of her relationships with friends and family generally as she isn't able to voice her needs or wants.

Neither of these peoples' PD suddenly appear when their not getting their own way or as an excuse as to why they have been violent to their partners after a night down the pub.

Where exactly have I made any reference to children?
Refering to children with ASD as "manipulative little shits" to try to score points with your non-existant arguement is extremely offensive.

Also where exactly have I said that I wouldn't believe a professional diagnosis? I responded to the OP's first post about how a large number of threads have a PD trotted out by a bunch of strangers on the internet as a possible excuse for poor behaviour, not a healthcare professional or formal diagnosis in sight. But hey, don't let not actually reading the thread stop you from from prattling on.

GarlicNovember · 09/11/2014 19:55

Neither of these peoples' PD suddenly appear when their not getting their own way or as an excuse as to why they have been violent to their partners after a night down the pub.

Some PDs, as I imagine you know, Chipping, do lead to violent reactions when the subject doesn't get their own way. Wrt the second half of your assertion, I sincerely doubt that you've ever seen Mumsnetters put drunken wife-beating down to a personality disorder. Don't make up arguments just to have something to sneer at.

GarlicNovember · 09/11/2014 19:58

Last post was in reply to Chipped. Sorry, getting my chips mixed up.

Mmm ... chips!

Shlep · 09/11/2014 19:58

What personality disorder is going to be diagnosed on a thread changes month by month. The in thing was to diagnose someone with BPD. Then they were narcissistic. Now they're sociopaths. Especially with BPD, I was amazed at the lack of knowledge people had and how easily the term was thrown around, even when the person being described didn't match almost all of the criteria for a diagnosis.

x2boys · 09/11/2014 20:02

So as a mental heal h nurse with eighteen years of experience working with people with h personality disorders and other mental illness ,s and a mother of a four year old with autism and learning difficulties I think I would love me to answer no.peopl can't blame personality disorders or an y othe mental illness for behaving badly but personality disorder was reclassified as a mental illness some years ago and mental illness can change some bodies personality .My son does not get away with be having badly because he is autistic he gets disciplined just like his older brother who is neurotypical .

x2boys · 09/11/2014 20:03

I would like to answer not love me to!

raltheraffe · 09/11/2014 20:08

The thing that annoys me is when users start bandying about diagnoses as a way to insult or belittle somebody.
I take the allegation I am a sociopath quite seriously, especially considering I was raised by a genuine (medically diagnosed) one, who cannot see his grandson as he is a safeguarding risk. Comparing me to that piece of scum is pretty offensive.

LL12 · 09/11/2014 20:20

As a parent of a SN child, it does wind me up when people automatically assume they must have some sort of special need just because they are badly behaved or an idiot.

It's no wonder people now have a warped view on disabilities when some folk like to blame everything on their own diagnosis of a SN instead of accepting responsibility for their own behaviour or just accepting that the other person may simply be an idiot.

It makes it a lot harder for people that really do have a real disability to be accepted.

SparkyLark · 09/11/2014 20:27

Interesting question. Bad or mad? Psychopath or evil?

Perhaps sometimes it is used as an "excuse", or overused? Possibly.

But I also think such diagnosis or "labels" can also really help us understand people around us who are actually behaving in that inexplicable and confusing way - if it is relevant. Most PDs do subscribe to a comprehensive checklist of specific behaviours and ways of being.

Such knowledge can help victims PROTECT and DISTANCE themselves, especially with narcissists/psychopaths.

In the case of 'borderlines' I have come across a couple of such people who were grateful for their diagnosis, as it made more sense of their own emotional struggles...